Poll: To Cheat-Free or Not Cheat-Free

[Baker]

Monster brought this up today and it makes good thread material:

Monster can't play on CRMOD.com because it runs in cheat-free mode and he doesn't use ProQuake.

Basically anyone that uses Qrack, JoeQuake or DarkPlaces can't DM because almost all of the DM servers are running cheat-free.

Sometimes players like sB mysteriously can't connect to cheat-free (no matter how many times he re-installed Quake) and cheat-free really isn't cheat-free with the OpenGL32.dll cheat that is floating around out there.

Plus anyone using Linux (there are a few out there) or a Mac is also excluded because no cheat-free builds exist (there is a Linux one, but it usually doesn't work)?

Should quake.crmod.com and dm.clanhdz.com be cheat-free in mode or should the server have cheat-free off?

Just for conversation purposes (although maybe something can be done), although it is a legitimate issue -- why should someone using Qrack or DarkPlaces not be able to play much vanilla DM without switching engines -- I have to admit that since I use ProQuake and don't like team deathmatch much that this isn't really an issue that I think about much.

[golden_boy]

Right now I don't care. I do think the whole thing is problematic technically but I've stated that before.
One day I will have a better comp and DSL and then I WILL come online.

You think I'll use ProQuake, of all things?! Nope. Probably Qrack.

Not much to say really.

[=peg=]

i think cheatfree is kinda pointless.. as baker mentioned cheatfree is apparently not all that cheatfree.
Also as has been mentioned many times on these forums, if someone is cheating, most ppl will instantly notice it anyways.. at least the more experienced players should..

personally i'm using the qrack client and i realy can't be arsed to use proquake anymore.. to add to that, i have tried to connect to the crmod.com cheatfree server but could not connect even tho i had a fresh clean proquake install including the qsecurity.dll

off all types of gameplay i realy do prefer DM so even with a 250 ping, i'd rather play on crmod.com then on rage CAx.. but.. i just can't couse off the cheatfree crap

[Monster]

Cheat-free does indeed piss me off. Like peg said, bots that people use nowadays will instantly be noticed and the player banned probably instantly. Cheat-free really doesn't block out anything, just the quakebot.exe, which is obselete anyways...

It seperates the quake community by imposing the quite nonsensical "rule" that everyone must use proquake to access that and other DM servers. I consider proquake to be a quite old and featureless client.. It will die out eventually one day due to all the new clients coming around.

[Canadian*Sniper]

Plus anyone using Linux (there are a few out there) or a Mac is also excluded because no cheat-free builds exist (there is a Linux one, but it usually doesn't work)?

Worked for me whenever I used it

Cheat-free doesn't bother me unless shmack:26002, bigfoot, or/and gchq went down under.

[jewification]

cheatfree still prevents people from used hacked executables, i'd say might as well leave it on. Theres other dm servers such as dm.quakeone.com that arent cheatfree. without cheatfree theres just more room for newbies to load hacked models and exes, sure it doesnt stop certain people but nothing can stop those people anyway.

[Baker]

Btw, dm.quakeone.com isn't pure DM, it's DM+. It's 4 rune (strength/resistance/haste/regen) with wall climbing on custom maps, we thought it might appeal to newer players and still entertain old skoolers but apparently CAx had more appeal and it never really took off. (Note: the QuakeOne map pack was actually designed more with DM+ in mind, CAx ended up being far more successful than anyone thought in the very early days of development.)

Back to the cheat-free/non-cheat free thing:

One thing I like about cheat-free mode is that I know everyone is using a "clean" engine and that no special features are being exploited.

For example, JoeQuake 0.14 and presumably Qrack have shadow capability where you can sometimes be aware of someone by their shadow that you couldn't see another engine. Maybe DarkPlaces? I don't know.

Also, I know that in ProQuake when connected to a cheat-free server that no one can see underwater. I do not know if this is true for, say, DarkPlaces.

Anyone remember XQuake with the Quad/Pent glows thru walls thing? Perhaps the most hated feature of that engine.

I think cheat-free servers prevent inadvertent cheating by client advantages -- intentional or not -- that are not readily recognized.

theres just more room for newbies to load hacked models and exes

This is very true. Newbies tend to go for a "cheater Quake" (bot) and simply can't connect to cheat-free with one of those or a cheater pak2.

[Mindf!3ldzX]

pretty much this,if the server-admin wants the server to be cheat-free,it will be.

If the server-admin cares what the community of any given server wants,be it cheat-free or non-cheat-free, it will be as such.

In the end,if the server is cheat-free, get the fuck over it and use GLPro 3.50

GG

ps : GLPro > Your Engine = The Peoples Champ.
PSS : Just so you know,once assholes figure out that a CRMod server is no longer cheat-free, they will probably ruin the game experience by bringing out the bot's. They are far and few,but do-exist.

[Baker]

But it wouldn't hurt for 1 of the 2 major DM servers to be running non-cheatfree.

I've heard so many times player X, Y or Z saying I can't play at CRMOD or DM.CLANHDZ.COM because of A, B, C.

I think if CRMOD kept cheat-free and if HDZ removed cheat-free it would make for some more flexibility so players that aren't using/can't use ProQuake cheat-free could at least play some DM.

Why am I suggesting HDZ instead of CRMOD? Well, CRMOD.COM sort of belongs to JPG (the ProQuake author and co-author of CRMOD) and I don't know the odds of getting that server changed.

Another example of someone who can't do cheat-free is IOV EFESS who has to use Direct 3D Quake because his OpenGL won't work (and I guess he doesn't want to do WinQuake style ProQuake).

[mithril]

I think the cheat-free module for quake should be redesigned. There's no reason why every engine shouldn't be able to interoperate on a cheat-free server. Basically, the server admins and client developers would need to work together. At release time, each client dev would generate 2 encryption keys and put them in a closed binary module to be distributed with a pre-compiled client binary. One key would be stored on the quake server and the other would be embedded in the closed module. Then when the client connects to the server, the closed module would send the CRC info (encrypted using the key) to the server and the server would decrypt it with its key to determine that the client is ok to connect. This way, all the source code for the cheat-free module could be open, and anyone could use it in their own quake client.

Of course, every time a new version of the client is released, the dev would need to send a new key to each server admin to add to the database. Actually, it may even be possible to re-use old keys assuming they haven't been cracked - the only thing that changes at release time is the CRC - so for every new release, the client devs would need to send at a minimum, the new CRC for their pre-compiled client to each cheat-free server admin to add to their database.

Any client devs here who could comment on this idea? If this idea is feasible, it would allow anyone, on any operating system, using any client to play on cheat-free servers.

[scar3crow]

In the end,if the server is cheat-free, get the fuck over it and use GLPro 3.50

In the end, if the server is "cheat-free", I go elsewhere because Im not using a crappy client just to be on one particular server.

Cheaters are annoying, especially when they try to rationalize it - but as someone who doesnt play on cheatfree servers... Um, it doesnt really seem to be a problem, not a big one at least. Definitely not large enough to make your server client specific.

LordHavoc has spoken before on the security module and how he finds it to be insufficient, and most of what he said went right over my head, but I trust his opinion on the matter as hes just very levelheaded and his client is the best, and I feel no reason to use a substandard client because of someones fear of "newbs". You know why new players cheat? Because they get smacked down mercilessly rather than trained. You know why other players cheat? Cause theyre dicks, and they will find a way to ruin your experience with or without cheats on any server, forum, or in person.

[Lerster]

The source is released from a previous cheatfree code. Any coder can modify this or use it to rewrite their own which is completely different from it. To keep it closed source like the creator of proquake did.

However, if anyones willing to go through this much trouble.

I suggest they build a multiclient support. I can guess why the creator of proquake didn't.

All the new clients that i (examined once then removed) has added features where the guns can glow when you fire them don't know exactly what it's called it looks like newage games though. But it's just annoying to me.

I'm for cheatfree but unless someone is going to build it to crc check everything including the models, which means people will have to use multiple pak's to jump from server to server again. As it'll be impossible to use just pak0.pak to connect to ra / ca / 3wave. Because the model's will not check out. Least i think so, wouldn't know till it happens.

I had it fixed for CA model (default quake model) for cheat free ca+ and it worked fine that way, but if someone makes and develops a new cheat free. I am unsure if it is implemented into 3wave servers as well if my pak0.pak would still checkout, it should.

As nothing is modified, i just know i get nagged in 3wave console about having an invalid player model as it's the way i have my pak setup to jump server to server without exiting quake.

But anyways. I think it'll take alot of time for people to program a new cheat free, that is multiclient and/or quake server specified in a whole. (Most would probably make multiples) to simplify, however people wouldn't want to have multiple in their quake folder thus, if they did split the server modules of cheatfree off. Then, they'd have to have their stuff search for the compiled finished product that will run a check for "ctf" "ca" "ra" or whatnots that the server will send to the dll upon connection for verification of the models and textures. An anything in the root that is program like and doesn't match a crc.

I donno, really how that stuff works i guess i should've examined the code first. I'm just speculating like the dreamer i am.

But this is not a perfect world. So i try, day by day to fight the addiction of substance, but to no avail, i may forever be within it's grasp. ^_^

[LordHavoc]

I suggest they build a multiclient support. I can guess why the creator of proquake didn't.

J. P. Grossman does not care about other clients, that much is clear.

[=peg=]

scar3crow wrote:

You know why new players cheat? Because they get smacked down mercilessly rather than trained

very good point!
that is exactly why i try to help out total newbs where ever i can and show em the cool tricks of quake (like rocketjumping all over the place)

i rather encourage new players to get a good cfg and practice their moves so they can play at a higher level of skill as soon as possible, in order not to get smacked down endlessly and lose intrest in quake..

also i try to go easy on the less skilled players just to maintain a good level of FUN.. couse for me quake is not about being on top of the fragscount, its about having FUN and making a few cool frags here and there (u know.. the ones that even the person getting fragged can enjoy)

[Baker]

You know why new players cheat? Because they get smacked down mercilessly rather than trained.

very good point!

No that isn't a good point -- at all. The players that go for a cheat tend to be the ones that refuse to accept that playing well requires practice and experimentation.

You give those players advice and they don't listen. There is tons of info here and other places and it can all be easily found.

I'm not perfect @ airshaft but I have improved greatly from the past and it involved playing airshot, airshot, airshot and more airshot.

But if I connect to Shmack, I'll have 3 players tell me I am cheating and when I tell them how to improve they don't want to hear that, they'd rather making cheating accusations and believe they are the best someone can be rather than actually put some effort into improving.