[Baker]

Originally Posted by ORL

Gunter simply does not want the source code for FvF to be in the wrong hands, so he never gives it out.

I've never understood this weirdness. Quake is a 10 year-old-game and FvF is played by all of 5 people once every few weeks.

It can't get into the "wrong hands" because no one plays FvF and Quake is an obsolete and dead game if you are realistic and objective about it.

[ORL]

Originally Posted by Baker

I've never understood this weirdness. Quake is a 10 year-old-game and FvF is played by all of 5 people once every few weeks.

It can't get into the "wrong hands" because no one plays FvF and Quake is an obsolete and dead game if you are realistic and objective about it.

Believe me Baker, if I was the one in charge of FvF I would have released the source a long time ago. It's Gunter's choice and we just have to accept that, whether we want to or not. If you want to argue with him feel free to over at the FvF forums, I'm sure he'll put up a good fight.

And much more than 5 people play there a week, so you know. Your probably just not online when the server has traffic.

[Canadian*Sniper]

Actually it's not Gunter's choice since he's not the original author of the mod. He's basically building off the original source while not letting anyone else modify it. In a sense, he's contradicting himself.

[Baker]

Originally Posted by ORL

Believe me Baker, if I was the one in charge of FvF I would have released the source a long time ago.

I view people that do not release their source code with a great deal of -- what is the word -- I guess I would use the word "caution".

I have a lot of respect for Gunter.

Slot Zero has put more power and technology into Rune Quake than exists in any other mod. If he can do it (Open Source his code), anyone can.

It's Gunter's choice and we just have to accept that, whether we want to or not. If you want to argue with him feel free to over at the FvF forums, I'm sure he'll put up a good fight.

Well, I'm not one for telling others what they should do. I always hold the opinion that someone's inner self is represented by what they do on their own volition.

[Canadian*Sniper]

Since we're speaking about this, I would have to agree that it is silly for an open sourced game to have closed source mods. Some could argue that it's for security reasons. The CAx source code isn't being released because rook doesn't want anyone to find exploits in the security code in it. If the security of a mod rests solely in a hard coded source, it will only be so long until someone jacks the progs.dat and decompiles it into source code. Then what? Is the security gone?

But that's still a reason to close source a QUAKE mod. It helps keep serious play in the community. Now let's discuss FVF. FVF was created by HAP if I recall. Gunter is also "friends" with HAP and got his source code. He then in his spare time (Gunter isn't getting paid for this) created a server side only mod so anyone can play. So that's his modification on HAP's code (HAP's version was available to others). Gunter on the other hand isn't handing out his version of fvf to anyone.

This is not the first time someone has shown interest in Gunter's version of FVF (it should also be noted that the author of this thread was asking for the most up to date version of FVF, not necessarily Gunter's version). But Gunter doesn't give a shit. His excuse will always be "I know what FVF should be like, so the only person I can trust in modding it is myself". Hmmm, does this remind you about another person?

In any case, FVF isn't big enough for anyone to give two shits. There's always arguements about CAx and how it should be run and everyone joins in the battle. But when it comes to FVF, It's just one guy vs Gunter and his fvf trolls shutting him down.

If Gunter never releases the source, then FVF will never truly evolve. And that's a bad thing since anyone could come up with some fantastic ideas for the mod but never see them implemented. Perhaps someone would want to add a CTF mode in it. Or add a new class. But Gunter will say "That's not very FVF like".

Ending my rant, I just want to say that Gunter is going to explode the day he finds out that someone spread his source code all over the net. GG

[Baker]

Originally Posted by Canadian*Sniper

Since we're speaking about this, I would have to agree that it is silly for an open sourced game to have closed source mods. Some could argue that it's for security reasons. The CAx source code isn't being released because rook doesn't want anyone to find exploits in the security code in it. If the security of a mod rests solely in a hard coded source, it will only be so long until someone jacks the progs.dat and decompiles it into source code. Then what? Is the security gone?

But that's still a reason to close source a QUAKE mod. It helps keep serious play in the community. Now let's discuss FVF.

If someone's contributions are open source, they have a much higher value to the community.

Someone whose contributions are not open source, to me these contributions are lower value because they are not available to others so the idea would have to be re-coded.

For instance, I know why CAx is closed source. The reason is the fear that someone would run a tournament with a progs.dat with cheats in it that allowed someone to scam someone else. This is sort of a different case because the intent of having CAx as closed source isn't to impair development, Rook shares code/ideas with others and additionally Bam also works on the source.

Hopefully someday someone codes secure server code that checks the digital signature of a mod or some other type of development occurs to solve this type of issue. I think Quakeworld has this capability currently.

The concern I always have about Open Source is that if there are very few modern mods with the source code available, the odds of someone new bothering to learn QuakeC are quite minimal as a result if they can't do anything with it.

[Baker]

The original registered FvF decompiles quite nicely

Just out of curiosity (a 5 minute whim), I used deacc32.exe and was able to decompile the Registered FvF progs.dat and the code does not nearly look like half the mess I expected (it's actually not bad at all, which surprises me). An example:



I am pretty sure that using something like WinMerge against the original progs 106, it could be reassembled into something very cohesive that would compile.

What made me think of this is that I just noticed that ORL said something about the FvF progs.dat.

All progs.dat prior to about 1999/2000 were made by the original QCC compiler because no other compilers existed. These progs ALL decompile VERY well.

An ironic note: Long ago I had read Gunter's story about working on the FvF source by hacking it with a hex editor and how he was fortunate enough thru a series of events to have come in contact with someone (the author) who could provide him the source.

In retrospect, although that was the easiest way for him to continue working on the mod, looking backwards ... it wasn't the only way.

Part of me finds the fact I discovered this now very funny. The reason is that I really do not have any particularly special abilities and yet I always seem to run across these things that people with vastly greater capabilities never find. Heheh.

[foq]

Baker just pwnd Gunter.

[Baker]

Information is just information; it isn't good or bad, it's just knowledge. I'm a free knowledge kind of guy. More knowledge is always better.

/Probably no one who has any interest in FvF has an ounce of QuakeC experience except Gunter (and RocketGuy). I think what you will discover is that FvF being closed source or open source makes very little difference because the value anyone ever brings to a party is what they can ADD to it. In the case of FvF, that is still going to be Gunter. So what is different? This is why I think closed-sourcery is silly, to be quite honest. There are plenty of open source mods, maps and engines and I don't think any of them ever regretted it.

[ORL]

Originally Posted by Baker

and FvF is played by all of 5 people once every few weeks.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."