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Unread 01-05-2017, 02:52 AM   #191 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Henry View Post
enderandrew, why would you enable the developer console when you do not understand what it prints, what windows libraries are and how darkplaces checks dependencies. You should disable the developer console. Or at least compare its output between different builds to see what has changed if you are the type of guy who likes to read walls of text. Not every warning will lead to issues, that is why the developer console is hidden for non-developers.
Because I was told I should not use the Epsilon compilation that is up to date and works out of the box, but rather told to put together my own mix of mods. I've found some don't work properly, sometimes I'm missing textures, or there are problems with scripts.

But taking a look at the logs, I can troubleshoot and fix those issues for own personal mix of mods I'm using.

I'm a Senior Systems Engineer who goes back to DOS. I understand what a DLL is.

Obviously the engine seems to work despite not loading these DLLs, but if the engine is trying to load them and you're not including them in builds then either that feature should be commented out where the engine isn't trying to load the DLL in the first place, or it is included with builds.

Sweeping error messages under the rug is not exactly a best practice, which is why I reported it.
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Unread 01-05-2017, 06:47 AM   #192 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Henry View Post
the darkplaces build you are linking is not the last stable one as you named it. The last officially labeled stable one is from 2014-05-13.
the darkplaces website hasnt been updated in years.
it still even links rygels pack, which is an HD compilation that was made waaaaay back in 2007


there have been many builds since then, including pretty much daily autobuilds
which can sometimes be just as good as any builds that get labeled as 'officially stable' by lord havoc

.

i can safely say the autobuild i linked in my HD content thread is perfectly stable,
as ive been using this particular autobuild myself for over a month.
everything works perfectly in that autobuild, there arent any features which arent working, the performance is good and there are no crashes or such.

.

i havent gotten around to being able to personally test the build you linked a few days ago.
i personally like to play-test a build to make sure there are no crashes or features not working properly
before labeling a build as 'stable' and adding a link to it, just in case there are actually bugs in it.
i dont want people coming to me crying about bugs and crashes because i linked a build
which i i am not 100% certain about is stable because it hasnt actually been properly play-tested by either me myself or someone like seven.

the autobuild linked in my HD content thread ive been able to play-test myself for over a month and i can safely say its very much stable.
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Unread 01-05-2017, 10:47 AM   #193 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by enderandrew View Post
Because I was told I should not use the Epsilon compilation that is up to date and works out of the box, but rather told to put together my own mix of mods.
The Epsilon compilation uses the mods from the quakeone forum together with a old version of darkplaces. So why should you not use this compilation? It is as good or as bad as every other compilation. If you are happy with a preconfigured setup that you can hardly change you are good to go.
There are lots of other compilations at moodb. Most of them only slightly differ from each other cause they are all based on mods from quakeone forums. I would suggest the Quake HD compilation by Smith. It still feels more like Quake when playing it. Smith respects the original mod authors at least.


Originally Posted by enderandrew View Post
I've found some don't work properly, sometimes I'm missing textures, or there are problems with scripts.
But taking a look at the logs, I can troubleshoot and fix those issues for own personal mix of mods I'm using.
You will find solutions to almost all issues browsing or searching this forum.


Originally Posted by enderandrew View Post
I'm a Senior Systems Engineer who goes back to DOS. I understand what a DLL is.

Obviously the engine seems to work despite not loading these DLLs, but if the engine is trying to load them and you're not including them in builds then either that feature should be commented out where the engine isn't trying to load the DLL in the first place, or it is included with builds.

Sweeping error messages under the rug is not exactly a best practice, which is why I reported it.
Then you should know that this is common behavior.
At software start all dependencies should be checked and if conditions exist you have to go into fallback modes. You can read a few of these engine decisions directly in the developer console by the way. Depending on hardware or libraries some things get disabled.
MHs engine even makes a checksum on the .pak files.
Engine devs decide how far they go and how deep they fall if something does not meet dependencies.
Darkplaces will tell you if something important is missing, shader issues exist, textures are missing and so on without developer mode.
If using developer >0 information become much deeper and also non critical issues and warnings will be reported. You have to be sensitive with these informations.
And keep in mind that you must not include all kinds of dlls in a download because of legal reasons! Best example is mp3 and ogg support and all its libraries.




Originally Posted by talisa View Post
the darkplaces website hasnt been updated in years.
Cause there is no new stable labeled release and Lord Havoc spends his time with his job and coding rather than website cosmetic. And he IS very active currently and does a great job. Believe me.


Originally Posted by talisa View Post
it still even links rygels pack, which is an HD compilation that was made waaaaay back in 2007
Yes because Lord Havoc is not a HD votary who browses quake forums for new textures and models. Would you prefer he links epsilon instead? I think not
He MAKES the HD features possible that others create. Just like Spike he is not much interested in the hd files itself or promote them in any way. There are different quake forums available to showcase new Quake content.
And you have other people creating contents and demonstrating engine features like Seven for darkplaces or Haze the Great and mushi for fte.



Originally Posted by talisa View Post
there have been many builds since then, including pretty much daily autobuilds
which can sometimes be just as good as any builds that get labeled as 'officially stable' by lord havoc
You should know that Spike and Lord Havoc do not like to label stable releases in a hurry. For Spike it took several years for the current stable release since his last one. That is pretty much the same for Lord Havoc.
Every beta or autobuild is just as stable as the stable labeled build. People should know this by now. It is the same for FTE, DP or any other engine.
Developing engines is a journey without a real final target. It goes on and on. Up and down. You should talk to Lord Havoc or Spike directly about it. It is interesting and exciting to talk with them.
As soon as a new stable labeled release is done, you are working on a new feature already. That is why it makes not much sense to release those stable releases. An engine is never finished!
The community is who requests the stable releases. Just because of the reasons you mentioned. To rely on a specific build and say: That one is safe to use. Which is most of the time not the case.
I remember Spikes big final release v5000. That got old pretty quick with version 5002 and further. That should show it pretty clear. And look at Mark V v1.0. It is exactly the same. It gets updated on a daily basis.


Originally Posted by talisa View Post
i can safely say the autobuild i linked in my HD content thread is perfectly stable,
as ive been using this particular autobuild myself for over a month.
everything works perfectly in that autobuild, there arent any features which arent working, the performance is good and there are no crashes or such.
Not really. Try to start a dedicated server and it will crash. Look carefully at the shadows in specific view angles. They get drawn in one scene and then disappears in the next. Just to come back after you make a step forward. And I do not speak about the shadow flickering bug that was fixed in september 2016. The new bug came with fixing the flickering. Just less significantly and has other reasons.
These bugs have been reported to Lord Havoc. He could simulate it, confirm it and fixed it finally. So you can be sure that the bugs existed
All other fixes and improvements from my post has been done since then too:
http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-hel...tml#post172591


Originally Posted by talisa View Post
i havent gotten around to being able to personally test the build you linked a few days ago.
That build does not exist anymore. Last fix was done in a autobuild after the beta from 2nd January. You can download the autobuild from today. It only gets better and better



Originally Posted by talisa View Post
i personally like to play-test a build to make sure there are no crashes or features not working properly
before labeling a build as 'stable' and adding a link to it, just in case there are actually bugs in it.
Only Lord Havoc labels them stable or beta. Every other build is a temporary autobuild that gets better and better every day. That is one thing we can be sure about and count on.



Originally Posted by talisa View Post
the autobuild linked in my HD content thread ive been able to play-test myself for over a month and i can safely say its very much stable.
See bug list above. And the autobuild that came out 1 day later is as stable as that one. Just with less issues.
I am in close contact with Seven as well. We playtest and discuss several darkplaces issues and features that we report to Lord Havoc. There are others too.

So we are all in the same boat having the same goal: Keeping darkplaces in shape and help to improve it as much as we can.

People who cares about darkplaces should do the same to keep this engine alive and kicking
Ouch, now my hands hurt from typing
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Unread 01-05-2017, 11:22 AM   #194 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Henry View Post
The Epsilon compilation uses the mods from the quakeone forum together with a old version of darkplaces. So why should you not use this compilation? It is as good or as bad as every other compilation. If you are happy with a preconfigured setup that you can hardly change you are good to go.
FWIW, I initially grabbed Epsilon but then put an updated DP on top of it to get the latest bugfixes and was chastised for it.


Originally Posted by Henry View Post
You will find solutions to almost all issues browsing or searching this forum.
FWIW, using the search on this forum hasn't turned up a solution for anything I've come across so far.


Then you should know that this is common behavior.
Not really and I work in software development. At compile time you can enable or disable certain features and libraries that turn on or off part of the codebase with ifdef statements and the like. But if you turn off a feature at compile time, then the compiled engine doesn't try to load a DLL for something you've disabled.

If you're trying to load a DLL that isn't there, it is a bug at worst, and sloppy at best.

And in general, seeing the logging out is very useful in some areas where different mods have different scripts that are both trying to replace the same monster.

I'll see something in the log that something is already defined, and the new redefinition is being ignored. That is tipping me off that I need to dig into both and decide which of the two conflicting versions I want to use.

Originally Posted by Henry View Post
Darkplaces will tell you if something important is missing, shader issues exist, textures are missing and so on without developer mode.
And yet I've seen where scripts fail to parse, textures can't load, etc. and DP doesn't say anything unless you're outputting to a log file. So that doesn't seem to be the case.

Originally Posted by Henry View Post
If using developer >0 information become much deeper and also non critical issues and warnings will be reported. You have to be sensitive with these informations.
I'm well aware of varying levels of logging (verbose, debug, error, etc). I've only turned on default logging to a file. I haven't turned on debug or verbose logging specifically. I haven't touched a developer cvar. I'm literally only using:

log_file darkplaces.log

Originally Posted by Henry View Post
And keep in mind that you must not include all kinds of dlls in a download because of legal reasons! Best example is mp3 and ogg support and all its libraries.
That isn't really the case either. There are patents on the mp3 format, and the consortium says you're supposed to pay a royalty for their patents if you have a decoder. So some people say it is illegal to distribute any library that can decode an mp3 file without paying for the patent. It isn't criminally illegal to use something patented without paying royalties. You could be sued, but a non-commercial project has no money so a lawsuit is pointless. That is why tons of free software has included MP3 support for years with no repercussions. The MP3 consortium charges royalties on commercial projects. But they've always overlooked non-commercial OSS projects because there is no point in trying to shake them down. Such as:

LAME MP3 Encoder

Originally Posted by Henry View Post
And he IS very active currently and does a great job. Believe me.
I agree 100% that he is very active. You can tell by git commits. The engine is very impressive and is constantly being fixed and improved. Though I still maintain it is a bad practice to ignore any errors you have in a default build. When you write the code to throw and expose the error, you did so for a reason. If/when those errors show up, you should do something about them.

Since Lord Havoc isn't here reading the forum and I don't see another proper channel to report bugs, please at least pass it on to him to see what he says about the missing DLLs and it saying it can't load various font files.

I'd think most any developer worth their salt would want to know that their current build throws errors out of the box.

Originally Posted by Henry View Post
You should know that Spike and Lord Havoc do not like to label stable releases in a hurry.
Labeling releases as stable, beta, etc. is a semantic thing. You'd think everyone would be consistent about it, but it isn't the case. And there are age old debates about whether or not it is better to run on older releases that have been more tested, or bleeding edge to have the latest fixes. The reality is that becomes a case-by-case decision where certain software or projects have varying levels of stability on the bleeding edge.

DP in general is quite stable on the bleeding edge. If Spike and Lord Havoc feel their current builds are fairly stable then it might be a good idea to put out an officially labeled stable build since the last one was a few years ago. If nothing else, most Linux distros only distribute packages for stable builds.

And while I'd rather they focus more on development than website design, a tiny blurb about recommending recent builds over a several year old "stable" might be another way to approach the same issue.
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Unread 01-07-2017, 02:54 AM   #195 (permalink)
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Hello,

I am using the 20170107 build for obvious reasons

Me beeing a single player only am not so much interested into the dedicated server crash bug,
but nevertheless I informed LH about it because it was mentioned in some other threads.

I was more concerned about the shadow dissapearing issue which bugged me the most.
Now that it has been fixed the shadows are how they should be again in DarkPlaces. Finally !
And adding the neat feature to also have shadows lying on transparent surfaces is great.

Unfortunately I am no AMD user, so I cannot benefit from the performace gain, but I am sure there are others who do. But I have better map loading times now, which is almost more important for developers who need to restart every 3 minutes for testing purpose...

I recently updated my computer to a more current cpu chip and I never felt such an performce boost before in DP.
It is without a doubt that DarkPlaces benefits the most from cpu frequence. gpu influence is much less.

I can only Thank You again LordHavoc !

All the Best for 2017,
Seven

PS: You can always follow change history here, if you do not want to read the included (much more detailed) changelog in the DP builds themselve or want to contact LH directly.
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Unread 01-11-2017, 12:20 AM   #196 (permalink)
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Hey Seven, glad to see you back! What have you been up to these past two months? I was beginning to fear something bad had happened to you...

Originally Posted by enderandrew View Post
Epsilon just put out a recent build at Christmas
I didn't know Xolve made a new Epsilon build. Still, if it was done correctly it shouldn't cause errors with the latest DP builds.

Originally Posted by Henry View Post
Smith respects the original mod authors at least.
Oh come on, this controversy regarding Epsilon is ridiculous! Xolve has provided the various mods' readmes and acknowledged all due credit in his own readmes. Where's the perceived disrespect?

Originally Posted by Henry View Post
And you have other people creating contents and demonstrating engine features like (...) Haze the Great and mushi for fte.
I wasn't aware of that. Considering the shit-ton of works for DP and the proportional lack of works for FTE available here, I thought no-one cared about FTE. I'm interested in this engine and would like to find stuff made for it. Do you have links for Haze and Mushi's works, and maybe others'?
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Unread 01-11-2017, 01:30 AM   #197 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bfg666 View Post
I wasn't aware of that. Considering the shit-ton of works for DP and the proportional lack of works for FTE available here, I thought no-one cared about FTE. I'm interested in this engine and would like to find stuff made for it. Do you have links for Haze and Mushi's works, and maybe others'?
Mushi's efforts culminated in this https://qexpo2016.com/introducing-afterquake/
Note that it includes Haze's stuff, and should be a cross between Epsilon and nQuake. Hopefully I've not broken anything since then...
Also as this is offtopic (having nothing to do with Darkplaces although I guess error reports almost qualify), you should continue this subconversation elsewhere...
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Unread 01-11-2017, 07:41 AM   #198 (permalink)
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Thanks Spike!
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Unread 01-11-2017, 11:20 AM   #199 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bfg666 View Post
I didn't know Xolve made a new Epsilon build. Still, if it was done correctly it shouldn't cause errors with the latest DP builds.
Yep, he has a recent Epsilon build, and the only thing outdated in it is SMC. But he ripped out and doesn't include most of SMC, not liking many of the changes. He only really includes a bare portion of an older SMC for weather effects, and the reflect overload.

If you run the latest Epsilon as packaged, it works. However, the latest DP builds break two things:

1. A texture script from Reflect Overload, which is fixed elsewhere.
2. Some of the map effects (steam coming up from the lava, window beam, etc) stop working with his included autoexec.cfg, config.cfg, effectsinfo.txt settings. I wiped his files and made my own config files and got the map effects working again eventually. I need to spend more time identifying which setting specifically breaks these effects with recent DP builds. Once I have more specific info, I'll post a bug report for it.

I also noted that when I was outputting to a log file that there used to be messages that the folders it wanted to use where not writable (even though they were) and DP wasn't using it. So it put autoexec.cfg, my saves, etc. directly in the folder I was running DP from. But now with the latest builds, it is putting them in my user profile and not the main DP folder.

C:\Users\USERNAME\Documents\my games\darkplaces\id1

For those opposed to looking at log files, reading them is how you find bugs like these and fix them.
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