Operation: Overload

[Baker]

This year there really has been far too much activity to do justice to it all. And yet we are going to try. Presenting everything that should have received more coverage and yet didn't!



distrans releases disdm4, a very nice looking DM map. And the most radical and most developed Quake engine of 2009 is easily MH's DirectQ which has many features and improvements and is a "from the ground up" port of Quake to the Direct3D API and far more (development thread @ Inside3d).

And the Quake Injector is a great front-end that works easily with Windows and Linux to easily enable single player play/downloading without hassles. Plus Beyond Belief high-resolution textures and .lit files. And skins and more skins.

And this walkthrough video of the Bloody Slipgates:



Additionally, if you have ever been interested in engine development on the Windows platform there is a tutorial on compiling GLQuake with freely available tools: Compiling Quake Using Free Visual C++ Express Edition

Plus due to the efforts of Chip, all the PlanetQuake sites that just bit the dust have a new home at: Home - QuakeWiki.net

Anything else missed? Probably.

[JPL]

If the intention was to list all released stuff about Quake this year: indeed you missed some....

[Baker]

The intent to list all the diverse creative stuff that happened this year that I could think of that people haven't heard much about.

As an example, a site such as, say, PlanetQuake lists single player releases and Speeddemos regardless of their significance or general interest [meanwhile deleting those sites] which why few people really bother reading the news there.

This site is more about diversity and creation rather than repetition of the same old stuff on a different day.

Each of the news items listed adds to the diversity of Quake, which is what news items here are typically about. Most of the stuff pumped out at, say, Func_Msgboard is preaching to the choir regurgitated sameness in a new way. Or at Inside3d many times as well.

This site has a less of an emphasis on whether or not "something happened' and more on the emphasis of whether "something different happened".

disdm4 is a very bizarre DM map. The Quake Injector and the backup of PlanetQuake archives are 2 very significant events. DirectQ by MH is new technology with a major effort. Skinning = supporting the creative efforts of those with ideas on refreshing the same old face of Quake.

Maybe initially you won't agree with me on this, but you will in the long-term, how do a series of Quoth maps represent any kind of diversity? It's like expert super-turtle maps. It's not like lunsp1 or Marcher or Soul of Evil or Travail or Warpspasm or Hell in a Can or A Desert Dusk but more like watching a new episode of a TV series past its prime. There isn't any freshness.

So the people playing those maps are other Quoth mappers playing each others Quoth maps and thinking it is popular. Kind of silly if you ask me.

This site's rejection of sameness is why it has a lot more traffic than other Quake 1 sites aside from Quakeworld.nu (which also has it's own form of diversity).

[spooker]

hmm, strange how you used enough of your time to make your response to the criticism longer than your actual original post, especially since you already addressed the criticism in the last line of your post. but it was a good statement of the site's philosophy which i haven't seen elsewhere. sigh, am i unwittingly criticizing baker again? geez, what im trying to say is, thank you for the unflagging personal attention to the site, including to small gripes....
the alpha injector is groovy. it didn't work for me the first time i downloaded it, but now i've got it working it rox. after my life evens out a bit, i'm pondering making a second runequake map pack with a nice intro map like the one we have now, since i've gotten bored of the first map pack, and the injector will help a lot with that. problem is i know nothing about making maps, and an advanced project like that is probably not the best thing to start on. metch might be able to help me tho...

[JPL]

OK, read me correctly: it was not a criticism, rather a comment. My intention was not to hurt, neither attack somebody, just a small comment, sorry if you take it bad....
Actually, I concur with you when you say most of the "standard" Quake website are fans of "rewarmed" Quake, and are elitist enough to flame people that try to do something different. distrans experimented it on Func_, and he has been so disappointed he decided to not post there anymore. I also had some tough days with elistist morrons that found stupid to use Half Life and Doom3 textures for my maps (Five Rivers Land, Fort Driant), but I'd like to make Quake evolve, and explore different areas. Quoth is IMHO the best way to go, as it allows tons of new feature use (sounds, items, monsters, etc.. etC...)...
Anyway, as most of genius, my talent will only be recognized after my death

[terminus]

I say, Quake Injector is the coolest invention since the lava lamp. *applauds*

[Baker]

OK, read me correctly: it was not a criticism, rather a comment. My intention was not to hurt, neither attack somebody, just a small comment, sorry if you take it bad....

JPL, you have no need to ever apologize to me.

Although I know maybe you don't know the pre-history of this site -- everyone who got together to make this site in 2005 was used to censorship at TLTQ or other sites where ideas, opinions or different points of view were discouraged.

We had a set in stone idea of unlimited free speech (except for spam/intolerable serial abuse/etc).

The exchange of ideas and points of view or concerns is the backbone of this site and is welcomed and encouraged here.

Actually, I concur with you when you say most of the "standard" Quake website are fans of "rewarmed" Quake, and are elitist enough to flame people that try to do something different. distrans experimented it on Func_, and he has been so disappointed he decided to not post there anymore.

Not to belabor that but I think that kind of thing made more people leave than just distrans. I think it might have been a contributing factor to aguirRe packing his bags, but maybe not.

But I do see that you see what I mean about general interest Quake.

I also had some tough days with elistist morrons that found stupid to use Half Life and Doom3 textures for my maps (Five Rivers Land, Fort Driant), but I'd like to make Quake evolve, and explore different areas. Quoth is IMHO the best way to go, as it allows tons of new feature use (sounds, items, monsters, etc.. etC...)...
Anyway, as most of genius, my talent will only be recognized after my death

I think you are overall the most diverse creative mapper in Quake the last 5 years.

Quoth is IMHO the best way to go, as it allows tons of new feature use (sounds, items, monsters, etc.. etC...)...

Quoth is a community suicide attempt because it is closed source.

Oddly enough, I have to admit that I actually embrace the suicide attempt. It isn't a Quake suicide attempt but a Func suicide attempt.

First, I'll explain why it is a suicide attempt:

Suicide Attempt

Closed source can't grow. The authors of the mod have very limited experiences and imagination. For example, Quoth can't even be run on a Quake or Quakeworld server in a professional manner. You can't vote-map for instance.

Plus it can't be further extended and even trivial modifications are impossible. Say adding a single new boss.

Plus it stifles creativity, like whatever Lunaran had for an idea where he wanted the source.

So essentially Quoth is an expanded feature set that leads to nowhere.

Now, some people would think I'm complaining. I'm not. Most of the Quoth features are easily available in other mods. Sound precaching was from Team Fortress, ladders from pox extras, earthquakes from hipnotic. The base monsters are reskins.

The work is high quality but the road itself leads to nowhere not simply because it is closed source, but also because the closed source decision -- Quoth had been talked about being open source -- also alienates, for example, the hardcore developer modders and kills the chances for any sort of widespread inter-community support.

For example, no one will ever run it on a Quakeworld server or anything like that.

Quoth is an assurance of stagnation as a result.

The Embrace

Yes this is odd admission, something I wouldn't have been willing to say last year, but I think the community suicide attempt aspect is great because the more entrenched old guard thinking that "retires" from the scene is a good thing and this occurs with a lower level of activity.

Ironically, some people see Quake as a dead game but it actually isn't. It just needs a bit more time for a resurfacing.

Quakesrc.org was a hopelessly dead-end engine development forum with a suicidal and abusive culture and Inside3d replaced it after death with a place with welcoming and encouragement free of the old blood trolls.

Func won't die, but the activity level will peter out.

I like Func from the metlslime is great aspect, but the community culture is terrible.

This site was born of the ashes of a dead "terrible community culture" site that was spawn from a series of them (TLTQ, RQAdvanced, others) and the community flourished after losing the deadwood.

Long story short, the loss of deadwood is what makes things grow. And Func is so far down this path, especially with the road to nowhere Quoth mod, that at this point reading something some guy like me posts isn't going to change anything.

Which makes it more fun for me, because I can admit it and still get to watch.

Think about the implications of both these parts and as a smart guy I'm sure you'll get it in time. Either that or you will see it happen.

Either way Quake is an immortal game with a very, very long future.

But to get to that place, deadwood has to be jettisoned. Quoth offers the assurance of stagnation in that it is better than the previous status quo but yet unlike the prior standard offers no avenue to diversity or newness.

So Quoth is like the Pied Piper

/Yes this is a very unusual post, but I don't see any reason to censor what I think especially knowing things are so far down the path now.

[JPL]

Not to belabor that but I think that kind of thing made more people leave than just distrans. I think it might have been a contributing factor to aguirRe packing his bags, but maybe not.

But I do see that you see what I mean about general interest Quake.

I think you are right for distrans. For aguirRe I don't have the exact explanations, but I suspect he has been pissed off of some "elistist morons" as I name them... though.. I think he has also in mind to jump into Quake2 community, and try something else: maybe he has covered everything in his opinion with Quake...

I think you are overall the most diverse creative mapper in Quake the last 5 years.

Oh, thanks for the compliment
BTW, I still have something in the pipe (a sequel of "Castle of the Dark Ages"), but it is rather stucked, as my time is consuming too quickly in my opinion... Anyway, I will finish it for sure, just be patient

Quoth is a community suicide attempt because it is closed source.

Oddly enough, I have to admit that I actually embrace the suicide attempt. It isn't a Quake suicide attempt but a Func suicide attempt.

Well, being closed source has it advantages, and its conveniences. Advantages is that the owners clearly does want to (revision) control their packs. Conveniences is that indeed, they are limiting the creativity, not giving others the possibility to make the mod evolved except if they want to include a new features... and it may be difficult to have it depending who makes the demand.

At this stage I would say it would be cool to be opened source, but any change would need to ensure back compatibility with previous release, in order to allow playing old Quoth maps... and believe me, it is fucking hard to ensure back compatibility when potentially hundred guys can put their hand in the code... though....





Anyway, I thank all the people that participate the community to stay "alive" with their website, maps, mods, level editor, forums, etc... It is just a shame that some of us leave out because of disrecpect from others... whoever they are !

We are not that much, and we do need everybody in order our Quake community to survive...

[Baker]

Oh, thanks for the compliment
BTW, I still have something in the pipe (a sequel of "Castle of the Dark Ages"), but it is rather stucked, as my time is consuming too quickly in my opinion... Anyway, I will finish it for sure, just be patient

It isn't an actually a compliment, but merely the truth.

I can remember when Spirit got me interested in single player maps and I played several of them and I was looking for something good *AND* new.

And after playing some of what were at the time newer releases like Hellchepsout (OMG, no map in DarkPlaces can match the beauty) and Cheyenne Mountain Complex (the penultimate base map, especially for coop). I was far beyond impressed.

Then Event Horizon with the Cyberdemons and then the Slime Refinery Complex (the first map to really use the Quoth base monster set adequately).

Well, being closed source has it advantages, and its conveniences. Advantages is that the owners clearly does want to (revision) control their packs. Conveniences is that indeed, they are limiting the creativity, not giving others the possibility to make the mod evolved except if they want to include a new features... and it may be difficult to have it depending who makes the demand.

Limiting creativity is the antithesis of Quake. No one would make another "Quoth" but people like Avirox (a supergenious QW server operator) like to extend and mold mods [this guy made the Quake-Life mod].

To the extent that Quoth opened the imagination and the idea of the concept of new standards for Quake 2.0, they should be commended.

To the extent that they wanted to limit creativity to themselves EXACTLY what they did with false pretenses of open source to get community support, shame on them.

Communities and evolution are not about the technology but about people.

Technology can be always be advanced, ideas can always be extended and each of us has their role but people matter. Evolution takes care of this, concepts that "get it" are rewarded but ones that are selfish and vain are not.

Open source isn't a panacea, but the idea behind open source (which is the idea of community power where diversity springs from surprising places) is a panacea.

At this stage I would say it would be cool to be opened source, but any change would need to ensure back compatibility with previous release, in order to allow playing old Quoth maps... and believe me, it is fucking hard to ensure back compatibility when potentially hundred guys can put their hand in the code... though....

No one would have the right to "fork" Quoth. But keep in mind that Warpspasm and Breakfast at Twilight were alterations of Quoth.

The above sentence has a built-in presumption that Quoth is important, which it isn't, but I'm explaining the concept of project ownership. People have forked, for instance, Quake engines but that doesn't make them official.

Getting back on track, the useful idea of Quoth was the successful execution of an extended standard and the manifestation of a lot of ideas in a single work. Prior to Quoth, some people didn't believe that was possible.

Anyway, I thank all the people that participate the community to stay "alive" with their website, maps, mods, level editor, forums, etc... It is just a shame that some of us leave out because of disrespect from others... whoever they are !

Quake is an immortal game [ironically due to open source; GLQuake doesn't run on a lot of machines] and today isn't the end of Quake as some people think but the beginning of eternity.

Now ... how does the fact that you can't fully embrace your community of origin make you feel?

What if that feeling were purged?

If communities are about people and respecting diversity and different points of view, don't communities get stronger when good wins and evil loses? I mean, you don't sound very positive or optimistic.

Evil has merit in this world; the merit it has is that it exists to be overcome and the resulting strength adds to the community.

You mentioned "disrespect" a couple of times, in a world where treatment of people matters wouldn't it be better to see that behavior snuffed? Wouldn't an entirely positive community make you happier? What about a place where good intent wins?

[MH]

I'm pretty certain that the QC source is GPL so Quoth's closed-sourceness should be a non-issue. Ah yes: The John Carmack Archive - plan archive - GPL it is.

For my part I see Quoth as a dead end because it's really nothing more than just another bunch of content. It's - mostly - decent content, but in the final analysis a Quoth based map is really not much different from an ID1 map. Different monsters and some different behaviours, but it's all just content when the quality of the map should be the real focus.

Specific example: imagine if Warpspasm wasn't a Quoth pack. Would it really have been any better or worse?

[Baker]

I'm pretty certain that the QC source is GPL so Quoth's closed-sourceness should be a non-issue. Ah yes: The John Carmack Archive - plan archive - GPL it is.

For my part I see Quoth as a dead end because it's really nothing more than just another bunch of content. It's - mostly - decent content, but in the final analysis a Quoth based map is really not much different from an ID1 map. Different monsters and some different behaviours, but it's all just content when the quality of the map should be the real focus.

Well, let's talk about the drawbacks of closed source.

Something that could have MEGA was Kurok. Like Quoth, Kurok is closed source on the QuakeC side.

Kurok is fantastic.

And absolutely, positively a clunker for a server. Just like Quoth. It can't vote player options or maps.

And shared experiences like coop are everything. Quake was made popular due to the social experience.

I tried Kurok with ZQuake (a QW engine) and Kurok has some sort of stupid speed regulator code in it and it won't run in a Quakeworld engine because QW prediction screws it up and even on a NetQuake server the players have no way to vote maps, rules and so forth.

Why even have coop capability in Quoth if it can't be competently run on a server?

Spirit has always made the argument that single player is superior to multiplayer -- something that once upon a time I didn't buy into, but eventually I saw the light -- and what really makes Quake shine are these mini-worlds that people create.

And oddly enough there is yet to be a comprehensive solution to the coop problem.

Another closed source example, foqer was asking how to ban people if the mod doesn't support it (he is hosting a closed source mod).

And what if an engine comes up with a knockout killer feature that requires a QC modification to utilize it.

Watching closed source debacles and then each time someone thinks their debacle will be different due to ignorance of history is painful to watch. Sort of. The reason it isn't totally painful is -- well -- I like being on the winning team

Someday, it'll be fun to take some of the derivatives of Quake-Life, SynQ, Nexuiz, several Quake and Quakeworld engines, Remake Quake and build an Open Source super Quake complete with dev tools for mappers and multiplayer chat and peer-to-peer.

[Spirit]

I'm pretty certain that the QC source is GPL so Quoth's closed-sourceness should be a non-issue. Ah yes: The John Carmack Archive - plan archive - GPL it is.

Nope, below is a quote from the Quake engine source release. The QC was released earlier. I don't want to search for it now. Maybe someone else has more knowledge or links or files.

Our previous code releases have been under licenses that preclude commercial exploitation, but have no clause forcing sharing of source code.

[lxndr]

Speaking of creativity, it could be interesting to list all the limitations that quake mappers can face, on the engine side, on the level editor side, etc.. and then try to address them.

It could start like a new thread or a "readonly" forum, or better, a wiki. No discussions, just raw stuff (ex: 255 colors palette, model textures stretched, Quark not running on Linux, player can't crouch, etc...). It's not bugs, but things that could enhanced everyday life if they were solved, giving more freedom to create.

[Spirit]

That is a very good idea, I sent a mail to aguirRe (he made a nice engine limit list) and asked if using it for the Quake Wiki ( Main Page - Quake Wiki ) would be alright.

[JPL]

Living in a Fancy Forum

You mentioned "disrespect" a couple of times, in a world where treatment of people matters wouldn't it be better to see that behavior snuffed? Wouldn't an entirely positive community make you happier? What about a place where good intent wins?

I mentionned disrespect because that's what I noticed too many times already, in both #terrafusion and on func_ forum. I keep continuing posting there because I don't care, but sometimes it is quite harsh to put efforts in your map, and simply being flamed/desintegrated by purists, just because you do something different.
I understand purists that want to preserve the Quake spirit, and that are reluctant to include changes that could "alterate" the original game... but sometimes they express their "purism" in a disrespectful way. They look then like any extremists, and it explains why people can be pissed off them, and just leave the community...

So to answer your questions:
- Yes I'd like to see disrecpect behaviors to be snuffed.
- Yes an entirely community entirely positive would make me happy, that does not mean I want everybody to agree and like what I do, just being positive in a constructive way. I do not like peole that do not like something and spit on without clear explanations: I'd rather prefer somebody to speak frankly with me saying I didn't like it because this and that, but giving advices how to improve the map... This is positive IMHO
- Yes I want a place where good intents win... that does not mean you cannot say when you don't like something, that does not mean you have to say "yes" and agree with everything said here... The more complicated is to say people you do not like what they did with respect and in a constructive way...

As example, if somebody come to me and say: "I do not like your map cause it is pure shit", then it shows no respect... Generally I tend to ask: why ? Is there any good reasons for this ? Please elaborate... and if there's no answer... I consider the guy as a moron, and I will not show any respect in return neither... and generally I ignore the guy as I do not have time to waste with moron...
I 'd rather prefer somebody that says: "I do not like your map because of this and that, and I would have prefered you did this and that, and this area can be improved in this or that way"...

This is an old world story, and a quite obvious lesson in life: you want respect from somebody, you have to show respect before getting it in return... Unfortunately, there are some "knowledgeable" people that tend to think others have to show them respect because of their seniority in the Quake community... and unfortunately some of them are wrong and act as moron... they will recognize themselves... or not