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A Complete Evaluation of DarkPlaces

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  • A Complete Evaluation of DarkPlaces

    A Complete Evaluation of DarkPlaces

    Here is a complete set of observations from several varied tests of DarkPlaces.

    If you have DarkPlaces properly setup, it feels so much better than any other engine and you do not want to stop using it. With no offense meant to other engines, it makes other engines feel like comic books versions of a great movie.

    DarkPlaces mouse movement feels better, the online play is smoother than anything else, and it is more responsive.

    DarkPlaces was shaped by a different user base than other engines; communities like the engine modders, single player game modders and total conversion online games like Nexuiz.

    With my old crappy GeForce2 I was able to play online pretty well for the most part, but encountered FPS performance issues sometimes. So I bought a new and better graphics card, a GeForce 5200 FX (not top of the line) hoping I would be able to ditch ProQuake forever at least for myself.

    I get double or triple the old FPS with the newer graphics card, but I still occasionally get performance issues in what seems to be some part of certain maps or certain situations. Although rare, I can just stand in certain maps at certain spots and get bad FPS and performance; this is probably due to how DarkPlaces does lighting or maybe how it renders entities.

    In closed maps like DM6 and Aerowalk, DarkPlaces is addictive and gets high performance. DM6 is small and there is never very much to see anywhere in the map. In more open maps, the FPS seems to dip and fighting in those areas seem choppy. This is all speculation on my part, but it seems like a strong pattern but I may be wrong as to why it happens. I'm not engine coder so I'm just describing what is happening.

    Synopsis

    The 4 main problems with DarkPlaces compared to, say, GLPRO go like this:

    1. Default settings and setup difficulties. Not really a big deal as this type of thing is not hard to adjust or it could be bundled with a config or a nice little setup page. Seems significant to someone using the engine, but is hardly something that couldn't easily be addressed in some form. Trivial to address.

    2. Little features missing that exist in other engines. A few engines have cl_fullpitch 1/0 cvars and DarkPlaces doesn't. PQ_TEAMSCORES ... once you use it, you want it forever. Qrack has a special MM2 sound. Other small stuff. None of that is a big deal, that stuff could easily be coded. Other things like different cvar names could easily be address by documentation and players learning about the engine. Trivial to address.

    3. Finding the right brightness/contrast/etc. I have some pretty good settings and can see fine and seems to work perfect on a lot of maps, but then other maps it is too bright. Or it is too dark. Or it is too bright in a certain area. DM3 is a good example and so are a lot of the rocket arena maps, but maps like the E4Mx series have a lot of "too dark" spots.

    I can't find quite a single settings that works well absolutely everywhere. The main problem is that as a result is a player is too dark, I can't see his color or sometimes I can't even see the player. If it is too bright, I can't easily tell what color a player is because it is bleached out.

    In team games, identification is important. In FFA type of games, you often in your head categorize threats by player color and might, say, only be concerned about a certain player that happens to be red and green.

    If only these lighting extremes did not occur *sigh*. Not a killer in itself, but can be somewhat frustrating at times. Probably a 6 out of 10 problem.

    4. Frames per second. *cry* The most lethal weapon in Quake is the lightning gun. It is also a very FPS sensitive weapon and a lot of times in DarkPlaces I can't shaft well at all. It is like sometimes it skips frames during an FPS drop and you simply can't keep the shaft locked on someone.

    Also when the FPS drops, you can't defend yourself and sometimes can't fire and you see someone and know you are going to be killed by a rocket and can't do anything to stop it.

    The "FPS drop" problem appears to happen in certain circumstances and certain maps, and is an intermittent thing that is sometimes not even encountered on some entire maps.

    Some maps and situations, it never happens. Some maps and situations, it happens often.

    Differences/Things You Will Notice

    Nothing in this list would stop me from using DarkPlaces, these are just observations and notes.

    1. Your ping seems to reported by the server 20-30 ms lower than any other client. I often show as 3 or 9 ping at a server where I normally get 34-46 ping. I don't know if this is somehow real with DarkPlaces or how/why this happens.

    2. Default fullpitch, which means that you can look straight up (and probably straight down too). Servers which disallow fullpitch (most) may correct your view if you look too high which feels awkward.

    3. Default "straight shaft". This can be turned off by turning OFF smooth sweep lightning in "Customize Effects". Most engines have this feature including JoeQuake and Qrack, but ProQuake does not. I think straight shaft doesn't even help aim the LG, but I can understand anyone who feels this is a cheat but unless that is the "one thing" that stops you from using the engine, it is a silly complaint since Qrack and JoeQuake has it (cl_truelightning 1).

    4. The side to side model bobbing is on by default. It can be turned off easily.

    5. You can type more than 44 characters when typing a message, but since ProQuake servers only support 44 chars (and I got no clue what the QW limit is) you can type more of a message than others will actually receive. This is because DarkPlaces servers support, I think, 255 characters of MM.

    6. The default lighting probably isn't what you would want to use. It can be turned off easily.

    7. Some of the effects can't really be made to resemble vanilla Quake. This is particularly noticeable at Shmack, where deathspots (blood particle) and ice spots are very hard to see. Also the "frozen effect" in an ice trap looks different. There are some other variances and I think these can be changed via a particles effect info.txt.

    8. Does not currently have the following ProQuake features: record a demo at any time, game clock visible at all times, iplog/ident capability, pq_teamscores (shows team totals instead of individual player totals in the HUD), pq_smoothcam (makes observing other players nice and smooth somehow), pq_moveup 1 (swim = moveup if in water because moveup moves faster than jump swimming), and few other little odds and ends.

    9. Yellow mentoned that Qrack has a different MM2 beep than MM1 beep. I figured I'd throw this in the list for completeness.

    10. ProQuake server rcon (RocketGuy mentioned that and LH said "ain't gonna happen" ).

    11. On very rare occasions, I get a crash (I think it has happened twice). But I blame myself :d

    If I remember anything else, I will post it in this thread.

    Benefits of DarkPlaces

    I listed some of the numerous advantages of DarkPlaces over GLPRO in another thread. It is pretty substantial.

    You can set the video mode, resolution, brightness, FPS from within DarkPlaces (very user friendly) and it has 24 bit texture support and when used with a DarkPlaces server (which can be run using a Quake compatible protocol = all clients can connect to it) can download maps and models (like Quakeworld does, for example).

    DarkPlaces has the potential to make a ton of things easier, it has server browser capability and DarkPlaces servers can be set to public, meaning they report to a master server (which NQ does not).

    Summary

    When DarkPlaces is getting solid FPS, it is the best experience by far.

    If DarkPlaces ever had a lower setting to get a consistent and high FPS like GLPRO always does and even Qrack seems to usually do, I think it would be easy and a no-brainer for everyone to ditch GLPRO.

    I've tried the equivalent of the Nexuiz "Ultra Low" ("super low?") config [except that I will not use GL_PICMIC ] and I still can't get DarkPlaces to be smooth FPS-wise under all circumstances like GLPRO and Qrack.

    The FPS consistency thing is problem and a real barrier. Who knows, maybe there is some way or some solution

    *sigh*
    Last edited by Baker; 03-21-2007, 10:14 PM.
    Quakeone.com - Being exactly one-half good and one-half evil has advantages. When a portal opens to the antimatter universe, my opposite is just me with a goatee.

    So while you guys all have to fight your anti-matter counterparts, me and my evil twin will be drinking a beer laughing at you guys ...

  • #2
    Well i guess you already stumbled over it when you looked through the nexuiz forum but maybe someone else wants to try them. i found those settings to be ok for Darkplaces to get as many fps as possible:
    Code:
    cl_bob 0
    cl_itembobheight 0
    cl_rollangle 0
    v_kicktime 0
    
    cl_decals 0
    cl_stainmaps 0
    
    cl_noplayershadow 1
    
    cl_particles_blood 0
    cl_particles_bubbles 0
    cl_particles_bulletimpacts 0
    cl_particles_explosions_bubbles 0
    cl_particles_explosions_shell 0
    cl_particles_explosions_smokes 0
    cl_particles_explosions_sparks 0
    cl_particles_quality .5
    cl_particles_rain 0
    cl_particles_size .5
    cl_particles_smoke 0
    cl_particles_snow 0
    cl_particles_sparks 0
    
    gl_picmip 3
    gl_texture_anisotropy 1
    r_detailtextures 0
    
    gl_polyblend 0
    
    r_shadow_bumpscale_basetexture 0
    r_shadow_bumpscale_bumpmap 0
    
    r_sky 0
    
    r_waterscroll 0
    r_waterwarp 0
    
    r_bloom 0
    r_coronas 0
    r_dynamic 0
    r_glsl_deluxemapping 0
    r_glsl_offsetmapping 0
    r_glsl_offsetmapping_reliefmapping 0
    r_hdr 0
    r_shadow_gloss 0
    r_shadow_realtime_dlight 0
    r_shadow_realtime_dlight_shadows 0
    r_shadow_realtime_world 0
    r_shadow_realtime_world_dlightshadows 0
    r_shadow_realtime_world_shadows 0
    With the cards you mentioned you might also want to test r_glsl 0 (vs default: 1) which will disable opengl 2.0 pixel shaders. Those might run slow on some cards but i never started to remember which ones .
    With those settings i get 405fps on average with timedemo demo1 on my nv6600gt. Granted thats a better card then you have but still i think thats more then enough..

    Comment


    • #3
      Here is the config I have been using:

      Code:
      alias +quickgrenade "-attack;wait;impulse 6;wait;+attack"
      alias -quickgrenade "-attack;wait;bestweapon 7 8 5 3 4 2 1"
      
      cl_bobmodel 0
      cl_rollangle 0
      v_kickroll 0
      v_kickpitch 0
      v_kicktime 0 
      
      bind "ALT" "bestweapon 8 5 3 4 2 1"
      bind "CTRL" "impulse 7"
      bind "SHIFT" "+quickgrenade" 
      
      cl_beams_polygons "0"
      cl_bobmodel "0"
      cl_particles_blood_alpha "1"
      cl_particles_blood_bloodhack "0"
      cl_particles_quake "0" // keep this off
      cl_particles_sparks "0"
      cl_stainmaps "0"
      cl_stainmaps_clearonload "0"
      cl_beams_instantaimhack "0" // no straight shaft
      crosshair "5"
      crosshair_color_alpha ".75"
      crosshair_color_blue "1"
      crosshair_color_green "1"
      fov "108"
      gl_flashblend "1"
      gl_polyblend "0"
      r_coronas "0"
      r_lerpmodels "0"
      r_lerpsprites "0"
      r_shadow_gloss "0"
      r_shadow_realtime_dlight "0"
      r_shadow_realtime_dlight_shadows "0"
      r_shadow_realtime_world_dlightshadows "0"
      r_shadow_realtime_world_shadows "0"
      sensitivity "42"
      r_waterwarp 0
      showfps "1"
      sys_ticrate "0.025"
      v_contrast "1.375000"
      vid_bitsperpixel "16"
      in_pitch_min -69.60937118530272726999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
      in_pitch_max 79.45312118530272726999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
      bind r "say_team %l %a %h"
      And the command line:

      e:\quake\darkplaces.exe -width 640 -height 480 -bpp 16 -dinput -sndspeed 11025 -sndstereo //yeah I know width/height/bpp doesn't need set in the command line; I've tried many resolutions.

      I'll try some of those settings; I'm trying to look at this thru the "eye" of "any player". I myself am tempted to buy a top of the line graphics card or at least one up a tier or 2 to see what happens for myself.

      I'm sure I get great numbers for timedemo demo1, unfortunately I'm pretty certain I could record certain demos on certain maps where the numbers are not good.

      I might assemble some screenshots of some different things and record some demos and do timedemo on them.

      /Just remembered a couple of other differences I wanted to document (and now I have quickly forgotten them, heh).
      Last edited by Baker; 03-21-2007, 11:16 PM.
      Quakeone.com - Being exactly one-half good and one-half evil has advantages. When a portal opens to the antimatter universe, my opposite is just me with a goatee.

      So while you guys all have to fight your anti-matter counterparts, me and my evil twin will be drinking a beer laughing at you guys ...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by esteel View Post
        With those settings i get 405fps on average with timedemo demo1 on my nv6600gt. Granted thats a better card then you have but still i think thats more then enough..
        I'm going to keep playing around with it, but what I worry about is all of those Intel Integrated Media graphics controllers that come with laptops (you cannot change that, it is part of the motherboard I believe) and, of course, the desktops. Kind of typified by this thread: Nexuiz example thread.

        Most players aren't going to buy a new graphics card for Quake (or probably Nexuiz either) if "all my other games like Enemy Territory work fine."

        I'm thinking this thru from a widespread adoption of existing players mentality.

        I might add that like a lot of others, I tried Nexuiz back in 2005.
        Quakeone.com - Being exactly one-half good and one-half evil has advantages. When a portal opens to the antimatter universe, my opposite is just me with a goatee.

        So while you guys all have to fight your anti-matter counterparts, me and my evil twin will be drinking a beer laughing at you guys ...

        Comment


        • #5
          do u use "r_novis 1" to get transparent water? couse that might explain why u get low fps on some maps..

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't use r_novis 1 with DarkPlaces (I'm not retarded, heh). The r_glsl 0 makes a big difference on this graphics card (GeForce 5200) and smaller difference (or maybe none at all) on the GeForce 6150 that came built-in my laptop. It also explains a mystery where my FPS sucked after updating drivers.

            Monster, it appears, is using a GeForce 7900 -- a beast of a graphics card -- which explains why he can beat anyone at Rocket Arena like he did with ProQuake (it is SOOO sad how badly can beat most players at Rocket Arena).

            When I play Rocket Arena with DarkPlaces, as an example, I get pounded very badly by players that I can either beat or solidly compete against with ProQuake (ironically because I use the shaft a ton in Rocket Arena, and I can't keep it on someone very well in DarkPlaces).

            I have no doubt that I could do just as well on, say, DM6 with DarkPlaces as any other engine. I've never encountered any performance issues with DarkPlaces on certain maps.

            But, perhaps DarkPlaces should just be viewed as a high-end engine for multiplayer. I would have purchased a better graphics card than the GeForce 5200, except this desktop is PCI so I can't use AGP or PCI-E, which ruled out most other graphics cards.

            And I think the typical graphics card that is used by the average player grows ever more powerful as time goes on.

            /I remembered more differences:

            1. DarkPlaces servers don't appear to have IP masking capability (66.55.44.x instead of 66.55.44.33 to prevent flooding .. which does happen -- ask Frenzy). ProQuake doesn't actually have this feature, but that is what the QCCX compiler is often used for and DarkPlaces isn't compatible with those QCCX hacks. More notes for the future.

            2. In DarkPlaces, dead bodies remained colored instead of changing to color 1 6. This is actually something that is noticeable in Artifact RJS/RuneQuake due to the Holograms and the Phoenix rune.

            3. Locs raw coordinates print if you don't have a loc file for a specific map; most players are accustomed to it printing "somewhere" if there is no loc file.
            Quakeone.com - Being exactly one-half good and one-half evil has advantages. When a portal opens to the antimatter universe, my opposite is just me with a goatee.

            So while you guys all have to fight your anti-matter counterparts, me and my evil twin will be drinking a beer laughing at you guys ...

            Comment


            • #7
              If you're looking for good benchmarking demos, I have 2 recommendations:

              bigass1.dem - a 6 minute deathmatch game on dm5 from a long time ago.
              result 6222 frames 41.9050000 seconds 148.4787018 fps, one-second min/avg/max: 115 149 257

              QdQ_1949.dem - a really long demo that announced speedrunning to the world. This demo is much more of a complete test. It's also recamed, so you see more of the action that's going on.
              result 32680 frames 182.9410000 seconds 178.6368283 fps, one-second min/avg/max: 4 178 375

              One other thing to note: the SDL version seems to not turn off vsync when timedemoing. I don't know if turning it off manually works.
              16:03:04 <gb> when I put in a sng, I think I might need nails
              16:03:30 <gb> the fact that only playtesting tells me that probably means that my mind is a sieve

              Comment


              • #8
                Ive not gotten any real slowdown using r_novis 1 on an id map before honestly. Sometimes I just want my nice r_wateralpha 0.65 for sp or botplay. And I dont feel like running the wateralpha patch.
                Inside3d - Because you can't be Outside 3D!

                Comment


                • #9
                  only a few maps slow me down when using r_novis. The slide maps for example. And that quake3 map.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hey! I loaded up the new DP to give it a run and I can move around it seems but when I press mouse1 "fire" the EXE locks up, no errors I just ALT-TAB out and close DP.

                    anyone else getting this?

                    AMD Sempron 2800+
                    ATI Radeon 9800 Pro

                    ***UPDATE***

                    Just tryed to run around DM3 and it seemed to lock up just as I touched Quad, had to restart my PC this time, hm?
                    QuakeOne.com
                    Quake One Resurrection

                    QuakeOne.com/qrack
                    Great Quake engine

                    Qrack 1.60.1 Ubuntu Guide
                    Get Qrack 1.60.1 running in Ubuntu!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      LordHavoc can only help you if you give him the error message and hex, etc.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The new DP is freezing up on me, too. Maybe a default gfx setting, but I haven't bothered to figure it out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ive had 2 lockups but they werent major, and I just got booted back to Windows and after checking the error itself saw it was pointing to my nvidia drivers actually which went nutty and hurt DP.
                          Inside3d - Because you can't be Outside 3D!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            One quick note: the messagemode buffer in DarkPlaces is actually over 16000 characters long

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              the death spots can be made to render normally by using cl_particles_blood_bloodhack 0 however this also means that blood effects look approximately like the quake particles.

                              Comment

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