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How To Conclusively Detect/Prevent Bots?

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  • =peg=
    replied
    NQ really needs server-side demo recording.. lets take QW and just reduce it to NQ, rather then take NQ and try to bring it up to QW standards..

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  • Neil
    replied
    i really dont think that bots should even be a problem, only client bots are actually coded for quake, most OGL hacks that people download. the aimbots are vector aimbots which are made for specific models most likely Counter-Strike, ive only seen 1 or 2 OGL's that had in one way or another support for Quake, and it wasnt very good, Why not just force the server to record demo's of players and u can jus question them after the match. If the server enforces demos lets say at the begin'g of a match ends the demo at the end of the match, its not like were in 96' and got 200mb HD's anymore. anyway my 2 cents prolly useless

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  • Zop
    replied
    R00k, I wish people felt that way. Some players just want a payoff (top of the frag list) without effort... or to grief other players.

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  • Rampage
    replied
    Originally posted by R00k View Post
    I dont think people are actively making hacks for Quake 1, but some are borrowing hacks from other games, like counterstrike etc, that share the same basic openGL functions. How much fun would it be to play Quake (singleplayer) in god mode, over and over and over and over again. I think most wouldn't attempt it twice. So, playing online with hacks, only cripples the player using them. I can see more new players trying to use them to gain respect, but in the end they will get bored of the "one button wonder" and move on. Games are simply to challenge our intellect. If you weaken this by using a hack, then you also dilute the challenge.
    If this is what you believe now, you have come a long way since our incident.

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  • R00k
    replied
    I dont think people are actively making hacks for Quake 1, but some are borrowing hacks from other games, like counterstrike etc, that share the same basic openGL functions. How much fun would it be to play Quake (singleplayer) in god mode, over and over and over and over again. I think most wouldn't attempt it twice. So, playing online with hacks, only cripples the player using them. I can see more new players trying to use them to gain respect, but in the end they will get bored of the "one button wonder" and move on. Games are simply to challenge our intellect. If you weaken this by using a hack, then you also dilute the challenge.

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  • Zop
    replied
    I don't think solutions to the problem (if found) should be disclosed, unfortunately. An indication found and used to determine that a player is using a bot will be changed when discovered and shared, assuming anyone is making q1 bots any more.

    I think MH is giving more credit to bot player prediction than is due... If the bot sees a player run into a room (as example, in dm3, player runs to RA room from rotunda), the bot could possibly mark that area for a few seconds, but there's no more information to predict if the target will camp, take tunnel to mound, or the path to SNG, or even come back out to rotunda. *IF* there are items, perhaps clients can tell when they are touched. I don't know if items are occluded like clients.

    I also see directions of projectiles being used to determine possible player locations, but it seems a bit weak. If a bot could somehow match a certain projectile to a sound played recently, it'd be quite easy to calculate where the player was at some time previous. Although it is more useful than nothing, it's still quite a bit less helpful than a wallhack.

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  • Mindf!3ldzX
    replied
    Speaking of Administrators HMM. Baker, someone stole my shit.

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  • Baker
    replied
    Originally posted by Lardarse View Post
    You're forgetting that ProQuake's cheat-free is unreliable at best. It has been demonstrated at least once that it's possible to make a client appear to be clean if it knows the correct song to whistle...
    As LordHavoc demonstrated, on Linux someone really smart, knowledgeable and intuitive can penetrate it. It took LordHavoc only like 20 minutes to defeat.

    ProQuake did 3 or 4 things very "right" in the way of security. Due to the opengl32.dll cheats, it ultimately proved to be inadequate.

    I don't hold out any hope that any Quake can ever be made totally secure on Linux, not just due to LordHavoc but from things that say, Bigfoot, has conveyed. I'm sure that on Windows, given enough time someone could crack it.

    There will always be a role for administrators.

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  • Lardarse
    replied
    Originally posted by mhquake View Post
    Problem with CRC though is that it's rather prone to collisions, so it's really only suitable for short bursts of data (like the move packets). Try CRC'ing your textures and see how many of them come up with the same checksum. An n-bit CRC only guarantees accurate detection of a modified consecutive n bits of data. Anything longer and the reliability drops off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_...s._correctness
    Would a more useful checksum be fast enough, though? Given how long it takes to md5 a 700MB .iso cmbined with the number of times it would have to be done, I can forsee at least a 20% increase in cpu usage. Potentially much higher...

    As for anti-wallhack, who said that the server should be the only part of Quake that keeps track of entities? A modified client could do a reasonable job with 50% to 75% accuracy in many cases, which would be more than enough to give a leg-up to a cheater, but still apparently random enough to other players to disguise it.

    That wouldn't work on ProQuake, but other servers would have the vulnerability.
    You're forgetting that ProQuake's cheat-free is unreliable at best. It has been demonstrated at least once that it's possible to make a client appear to be clean if it knows the correct song to whistle...

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  • Paradise
    replied
    I love how this thread evolved! Keep thinking onto it O, you geniuses! The solution WILL come!

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  • MH
    replied
    Originally posted by R00k View Post
    About the crc flaw, ProQuake encrypts the crc with a random seed.
    if (seed+model->crc) != (seed+client->model->crc) false
    it also does this for clc_move packets...
    Problem with CRC though is that it's rather prone to collisions, so it's really only suitable for short bursts of data (like the move packets). Try CRC'ing your textures and see how many of them come up with the same checksum. An n-bit CRC only guarantees accurate detection of a modified consecutive n bits of data. Anything longer and the reliability drops off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_...s._correctness

    As for anti-wallhack, who said that the server should be the only part of Quake that keeps track of entities? A modified client could do a reasonable job with 50% to 75% accuracy in many cases, which would be more than enough to give a leg-up to a cheater, but still apparently random enough to other players to disguise it.

    That wouldn't work on ProQuake, but other servers would have the vulnerability.

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  • omix2
    replied
    Originally posted by b4sy View Post
    Seems like the quake community is getting very paranoid. I mean most of us have been playing this game for 10+ years, don't you think this game becomes second nature for most of us?

    It seems like you guys worked so hard to get that wallhack prevention on the server, just to get disappointed and start accusing people of bots. I'd really like to see this list of people who are accused of hacking.. I bet I'm at the top?

    Once you start playing games for money, like counterstrike, you begin to perfect your game play, which eventually turns into bot-like play. You do the fastest route, the smartest movements, and the most efficient ways to kill the enemies., etc. If you watch some of the final tournaments of counterstrike and other games, you will see those players play like bots, but they're not using bots. Once you play a game so long you know what to do, but it's all about being aware of doing it.

    A perfect player would be a bot, bottom line. No emotion, just thoughts of what is the best way to do what you have to do. That's the truth of the matter.

    In my opinion, if you think someone is botting, check their movement. If they can shoot you like a bot, but suck at moving, then they cheat. Movement is 90% of the game. It's all about how to make your enemy move into the position you want them, then you fire. It's almost a psychological game just because you try to manipulate your enemy into your shots.

    If anyone has watched that discovery channel show called "Make me a genius" you would see that we are all programmed to be great at certain things. The girl on there grew up playing chess, and basically her brain was programmed to figure out the best possible chess moves. Like-wise people who grew up playing first person shooters, would obviously be programmed to be good at them and making the best decisions.

    In all reality, I think people who grew up playing games will have that second nature compared to people who didn't grow up playing games. Of course I'm talking about computers, and specifically First Person Shooters. As I grew up playing them and started playing them when I was around 5 or 6, and been ever since.

    I thought a lot about this because I found it very weird that people would accuse me of hacking. I never really thought about all this until Goblin started asking me non-stop questions about my game play, then I realized it's all about mastering the way you play. Discipline and confidence, in my opinion, are the two primary things for games. You can pick out the confident players easily. I told Goblin this, and I believe this, Once you strike fear into your opponent they will begin to doubt themselves, then it's easy to dominate them.

    Games are all psychological. If you think about it, if you get killed by someone multiple times and you try everything you can to kill them, but can't, don't you start to avoid contact with them, or try to be defensive and sneaky around them so you don't have to confront them?

    Majority of players have great aim and movement, but games are more then that. Some players can take it to the next level, and others can't.

    Anyways I'm deep thinking again, bottom line would be if you think someone is botting, watch their movement, if they move sloppy, but shoot perfect, then they are cheating.
    YOU ARE SUCH A FUCKING SCUMBAG. SINCE WHEN CAN YOU CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING TO AN ANTI-CHEAT DISCUSSION? GET THE FUCK OUT OF QUAKE, YOU HAVE BEEN CHEATING FOR 6+ YEARS AND VERY OPEN ABOUT IT AND NOW SUDDENLY YOU PUT ON A FACADE OF INNOCENCE AND MASQUERADE AS A REAL PLAYER?

    FUCK OFF KID.

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  • Paradise
    replied
    Ooh!! Ooh!! Drop that sexy techy knowledge boiii!

    Ima take that seed and grow me a nice flower with it. HeHeHe!!

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  • R00k
    replied
    About the crc flaw, ProQuake encrypts the crc with a random seed.
    if (seed+model->crc) != (seed+client->model->crc) false
    it also does this for clc_move packets...

    Leave a comment:


  • Paradise
    replied
    If not completely eliminating is not possible, although maybe it can - I do not know as I am not that techy advanced - reducing it considerably is better than nothing!

    Also realize that someone has to be making these cheats. That takes time and determination and they have to be good at it. Frankly why would anybody bother to crack a 12 year old game played online? Most play the newer games where they already have well established anti-cheating systems, see Valve's VAC and PunkBuster.

    Most cheaters are not all die hard hackers and programmers, they just do a Internet search for easily, accessible cheats and they mostly come up with nothing and if they do find something it is outdated and will not work.

    I say we are really close to eliminate cheating. We are just not a big corporation to have the brain and resources to put together a good anti-cheating systems as some of the newer games posses.

    We have to make do with who and what we have.

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