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Quake Reforged Project

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  • Which is strange because it looks pretty good on the walls and such. But yeah if it doesn't work so well on models then I can see why it's not used. But I have seen that sort of feature or at least something similar (there are so many similar techniques it can be confusing) in other engines with great results so I know it's possible but I guess not so in darkplaces. I just thought that for example it would be cool to see the monsters teeth sticking out from their faces more three dimensionally. Not that I don't appreciate the skins the way they are mind you.

    BTW, I've noticed with rygel's ultra pack that he used jpg's for most things except the normals which are tga with the parallax mapping... his pack runs with real good performance on my machine.

    I find the thing that hurts peformance the most on my machine however is enabling certain features rather than the format the images are in... like setting
    r_glsl_offsetmapping_reliefmapping "0"
    really does help with performance while still getting the parallax mapping.

    Originally posted by Nergal View Post
    Yup, we’ve also forgot to add the player skin
    The available version derives from the grunt and use the original model, but a proper skin will be made when I know which new model you use the most.
    Since the monster skins simply reskin the default models wouldn't the player skin do the same thing? Just like the monsters there's only one player model included in the game and Quake doesn't give you a choice apart from the color of the pants\shirt. I don't think you should have to worry about third party models here any more than you have to worry about third party monster models considering changing the player model is pretty much the same as changing the monsters since player model is not an option.... unlike in Quake 2 or especially Quake 3 Arena where you could add-on as many player models as you want and choose between them.
    Last edited by smoketetsu; 01-06-2011, 06:00 PM.


    • Hmmm,

      I use for all my static models (ammo + health b_boxes and powerups) normals, and the effect is clearly visible in-game.
      Otherwise I wouldnt use them, as they mean longer map loading times and so on.

      I never made monster skins, so I cannot say something about them.
      But it should be similar to static models, no ?

      What you must keep in mind: you cannot deactivate the visual effect for models with the "r_glsl_offsetmapping" command.
      This will only affect world/wall textures.
      If you want to see the difference of a model with and without normal,
      you must take a screenshot (with normals in your folder), then remove it, start DP again and make the second screenshot.
      Then you can compare the screens.
      It is not possible to activate/deactivate the normal-skins for models with the "r_glsl_offsetmapping" 0/1 command during game.

      Kind Regards,


      • You have parallax\displacement mapping on your health\ammo boxes? 24-bit\16-bit normals (no alpha channel) don't create that affect AFAIK.. so yeah, you could have normals but not that feature. The quake reforged skins don't but I guess they can't make it work well enough.


        • You maybe dont know about "CrazyBump" ?
          This little jewel spits out working normals like popcorn

          You sure know My-Key, our best Normal Map Maker here, he recommended this program to me.
          Every since then I use it on models as well. It works great.
          Not only myself use normals for models. Also people like OoPpEe, kingennio and other talented people create normals for models with amazing effects in-game.
          The normal is a 24bit tga file.

          It will also work on monster models I guess. Never tried it though.
          But I remember OoPpEe just recently released his Tabun Enforcer with normals...

          Kind Regards,


          • You misunderstand me. I didn't say making normals is not possible.

            Like I said 24-bit image files don't have an 8-bit alpha channel (32-bit files do). In order to have parallax\offset mapping it calculates it from the alpha channel. Quake Reforged normals are 24-bit already and affect the lighting but not the shape. Rygel's normals in his texture pack are 32-bit and do affect the shape. jpgs don't support 32-bit so they can't do it no matter the application making them. What I'm talking about here is a "height map". BTW, if your normal has an alpha channel it's not 24-bit... it's 24-bit + 8-bits for the alpha.

            With a 24-bit normal it affects the lighting and you can see that very good from the front but it still looks flat from the side. Just for the hell of it I ran a quake reforged skin through crazy bump and it exaggerated the lighting effect but it was still flat from the side.... unlike the wall textures which have carved detail from the alpha channel height map. So what are the settings needed to produce it?

            *edit* well I've found that you can add the displacement map into the normal using a graphics program (I used The GIMP) as an alpha channel mask but the results can be a little unpredictable.... but it works (I just did it to plague's shotgun). I have to do some more experimenting here. Typically I read about people using their 3D program to extrude detail in a texture and then baking a 32-bit normal off of that. I tried doing the displacement map thing using crazybump on the soldier normal and it didn't work so well... it's probably better to use a 3D program to bake it.

            Worked pretty good on some other models (like the axe model) though.
            Last edited by smoketetsu; 01-07-2011, 04:29 PM.


            • smoketetsu,
              normals must not have an alpha channel. It will not work then.
              My 24bit tga normals surely dont have a alpha channel, thats why I wrote: 24 bit.
              It all can be adjusted in CrazyBump preferences.

              IMPORTANT: If you want to use CrazyBump for Quake normals,
              you must set this in Preferences: Change the Y-axis to UP direction

              So, now we should stop this discussion.
              One thing should be clear now:
              It IS possible to add normals with the correct effect to models.
              What Reforged Team do or not do, is their own decision.
              If you want to make working normals, you can do it by yourself.
              Just use the correct tools/programs + settings and you will succeed.

              Thank you for this interesting and informative discussion smoketetsu.

              Kind Regards,


              • Guys, why not you try CrazyBump with some of the Reforged skins and show us what happens?


                • I was only talking about offset mapping AKA displacement\aka parallax mapping not normal mapping.

                  If all you want is a regular normal that affects the lighting the ones that come with Quake Reforged are just fine. Like I said you can exaggerate this effect using crazy bump when you run quake reforged's normal maps through it.. but it's not the effect I was talking about. But yes it looks good don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that's incorrect. If that's all you want you don't need to use crazybump on the quake reforged skins at all. Please don't think I'm saying you can't make a correct normal map with crazybump. I never ever said that. Yes it is easy to make working normals without displacement in crazybump and since they don't have alpha channels you don't even need to save them as a png or tga. That's not in question here.

                  However, I see normals with alpha channels that affect the heightmap\parallax map all the time just look at rygel's texture pack or the quake retexturing project. If you don't believe me just take a look at the normal maps and see they have an alpha channel and then look in the game how they affect the shape of the wall when you have the offset option on without having to have a separate height map file.. I don't see how this is controversial or wrong.

                  It's correct that you don't need one to have a normal map. I was just talking about what it's used for in darkplaces and other engines and that's a height map for parallax mapping\displacement\offset mapping. If the engine supports it you could even load it from a seperate 24-bit displacement file. id tech 4 supports this... like in Doom 3. Crazybump allows you to save one as a seperate file and darkplaces supports seperate map files at least for things like luma, normal and other things. But I don't know if darkplaces does for this particular feature (displacement). But yes I see that you can make a displacement map in crazybump that can serve the purpose if you either load it into the normal as an alpha mask or load it up from a seperate file. Like I noted earlier it worked great for me adding in a displacement map into plague's weapon models.

                  Has anyone made a seperate height\displacement map and loaded it in darkplaces? What would the name of the file be... if luma map is _lum and normal map is _norm then is it _disp?

                  I never said it wasn't possible to make a correct normal or even a displacement map in crazybump just that sometimes for more control it's better to bake it in a 3D graphics program. I see people do this all the time. This can depend on a lot of things like complexity of the model and the engine you run it in. I was just speculating that perhaps that'd be the best thing to do to get a displacement map onto the default monster models in quake in darkplaces.

                  But the issue seems to be the monster models themselves. I noticed even if I put a subtle displacement map into the normal the UV mapping warps perspective (especially on the head) as I move around the model which I guess the Quake Reforged team may have noticed when they tried it so I now see why they didn't do it. I did manage to get some 3 dimensional detail carved into things such as the open guts on the shambler skin but the warping of the skin when I move around it ruins things. But for other things like the walls yes their normals have alpha channels and they do parallax\dispalacement just fine. But then again I may have done something wrong. So I would like it if someone who knows what I'm talking about\is on the same page as me and is real good at it give it a try... but that's not a demand.

                  In the end I don't think Seven and I are even talking about the same thing or are on the same wavelength so it's not too productive. I may not be explaining myself adequately although I tried my best.

                  I understand what the quake reforged team wants to do or not do is their business and I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. I was just discussing a specific feature (displacement mapping... don't confuse this with just normal mapping please) and whether not it's feasible for the standard quake monster models in darkplaces. I apologize if it seems like I am being demanding in any way but I guess it's hard to talk about things as this without sounding that way. We've gone over that before as well and YES I understand it.

                  If after that you still think I'm saying a 24-bit normal is incorrect and the lighting effect it produces is incorrect I once again apologize as that's not what I'm saying here. I also apologize if I seem ungrateful to the Quake Reforged Team for what they provided. I'm not ungrateful at all... and I'm not demanding they do something that they don't want to or not able to get working well.

                  Anyway I wrote too much here and I'll stop. If someone wants to discuss specifically offset\displacement mapping with the monster models further then they can PM me or something.
                  Last edited by smoketetsu; 01-08-2011, 11:08 PM.


                  • I just noticed nergals post a few above this one.
                    so are the headgibs done now then?

                    just checking so I don't download it all over again for nothing...


                    • i think i heard that sentence this thread


                      • yes you did but there has been a further post from nergal since and it's still unclear wether its done or just going-to-be done? just checking, not nagging...


                        • @osjclatchford: you're always welcome
                          "going to be done" seems to be our motto. not something to be proud actually, but we've patience (even if we'd prefer time..)
                          skins were ready from the beginning, my fault for not checking before zipping the pack. now we've to yell at alfader for the upload

                          about the recent rukus concerning normals and reliefmapping, I'm going to write a post to explain our choices, so we can put this thing definetely behind and carry on together in peace
                          Last edited by Nergal; 02-02-2011, 10:21 AM.

                          Quake Reforged
                          Retexturing and Reskinning project for Quake, Scourge of Armagon and Dissolution of Eternity

                          SoA skins
                          DoE skins pre-release


                          • I don' like the previous Armagon skin anymore, so I've started another one. maybe the former will follow the same course of the first enforcer skin (retouched and released as alternative).

                            armagon1.jpg (bigger img)

                            Attached Files

                            Quake Reforged
                            Retexturing and Reskinning project for Quake, Scourge of Armagon and Dissolution of Eternity

                            SoA skins
                            DoE skins pre-release


                            • This Armagon scares the sh.t out of me.

                              Amazing details Nergal.


                              • Looks good, I however would change the skin color from blue back to brownish just to keep it faithful.
                                Also could you post the other Armagon skin? I never seen it and can't find it