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**Hazza** · 04-22-2011, 02:50 AM

Very interesting and sounds fun!
(I reckon if I were you (and its ok if you dont) I would actually make entirely new maps that kinda carried the themes of the originals but had slightly new layouts and monster positions- just to keep people guessing).

**LambentHammerBurst** · 04-22-2011, 08:58 AM

Sadly I can't map

I'm open to people making maps for it. Which I am hoping for. Due to the randomization - this will change any maps map specifically for Q1/Mp1/Mp2 without any further editing.
Presently there would be some guessing as to which variation of the monster is around the corner.
Ex: Death Knight - will it be one or a (Savage) Centoid, or Wrath - each are pretty different enemies.

**Seven** · 04-22-2011, 01:18 PM

Hello OoPpEe,

My issue report from your newest build (20.04.2011):

1.) Your code remembers the last used weapon in each slot.
Example: Choose the prototype nailgun (doesnt matter if with mousewheel or key),
then push the key "2" and you will take out the shotgun.
Now push the key "3" and you will take out the prototype nailgun instead of the nailgun.
So, always using the first weapon in a slot (as it is coded in original mission packs) is not implemented yet.

2.) Grappling Hook uses the alternate ammo view
It makes no sense to give the grapling hook (as it doesnt use any ammo) the alternate ammo view.
It should behave like the axe.

3.) (referring to 2.) ALL alternative ammo weapons dont use the alternative ammo view.
So, either use the original ammo view for all weapons (also for grapling hook) or
give all alternative ammo weapons the correct alternative ammo view (= better).

I interpret that one of your reasons to choose the rogue HUD is the alternative ammo view,
so there is no reason for not to use it, because you have max. 2 ammo types per slot in your mod.
That is what rogue can give you with no issues.

legend:
original ammo view == R_INVBAR2
alternative ammo view == R_INVBAR1

Kind regards,
Seven

**LambentHammerBurst** · 04-22-2011, 02:41 PM

The "remembers weapon" was added by Shadowborg, I kept it in as I did find it to be a nice addition. Like if I was using the Multi-Rocket Launcher in a big fight and when a weaker enemy comes near - switch to the Super Shotgun to kill him without blowing myself up, when I push 7 again, I want the Multi-Rocket out again. Was a feature I failed to mention. I can look into making multiple instances of "Impulse" binds. The QTest/MP1/MP2 weapons all have direct binds to them (they will cycle later) and those ones will attempt to pull out that weapon first THEN go to the next if it isn't available. I can make a separate impulse for the original id1 weapons that does the same. That way we have the best of both worlds. A user can keep the default "remember weapon" cycle or they can use a cycle code which doesn't remember which weapon and will instead pull out the weapon you want and if it isn't available - switches to the next. This will just need 8 more impulses to add - which is easy to do

Grappling Hook - code wise it IS the axe. Much of the weapon coding uses this:
if weapon = IT_SUPER_SHOTGUN & weapon2 = IT3_QTEST_SUPER_SHOTGUN
do this QTest Shotgun Code
else if weapon = IT_SUPER_SHOTGUN & weapon2 = IT3_SUPER_SHOTGUN
do this Shotgun Code

The IT_SUPER_SHOTGUN is only used to tell it what icon to use on the HUD.
As I already used all 24 possible values, I had to cheat to get the Grappling Hook in.
Axe uses: IT_AXE and IT3_AXE
Grapple uses: IT_GRAPPLE and IT3_AXE
So the HUD issue you are referring to is caused by the IT_GRAPPLE however no other values to use as if I make it use any of the other IT_ values when you use it - it will use that icon on the HUD. So if I assign it to a different IT_ value it will result in the same incident. Also the original Grapple did the same effect as that's hard coded into the engine. I *could* try a work around but that could be difficult.

The Inv bars are handled via Engine. I did notice the Lava Nailguns, Multi-Rockets and Plasma Guns don't swap out the ammo either. So that will be a future bug fix. This however will make those weapons get their own icon on the HUD again - I can fix that by modifying the .wad file to make it identical to the default and just make a note for those who customize their HUD to replace BOTH textures as if they don't the old low res icon will come out for Plasma/Multi/Lava guns.

The reason to use the Rogue extension wasn't for the ibar (completely forgot about it as I never have it visible) but for the larger ammo icon that appears beside your ammo count in large text. Without the "rogue" extension the Lava/Multi/Plasma ammo icons for those would be gone but still have a ammo count (basically appear the same as the axe - except with a number aside from zero)

**Seven** · 04-23-2011, 03:06 AM

...there we go again.
Misunderstanding most probably due to my bad english.

I spoke about a different issue OoPpEe.
It is not the weapon icon I was complaining about.
It is the ammo icon (not the big one on the lower left side), the tiny ones on the top of the HUD (viewsize 100 !).

OoPpEe,
you only have max. 2 ammo types per slot.
But the ammo icons are always showing the original ammo view.
Why you dont switch to the alternate ammo view, when using the weapons with alternate ammo ?
And why does the grappling hook switch to the alternate ammo view ??
That makes no sense to me.

The mission pack 2 does this correctly.
Example:
When I switch to the lava nailgun, the "R_INVBAR1" ammo view must be shown.
When I switch to the nailgun, the "R_INVBAR2" ammo view must be shown.
This has nothing to do with the ibar.tga.
It is overriden in MP2 by above mentioned textures.

Please correct this, as it is a bug in my eyes.

The weapon icons are OK for me.
You can use the same weapon icon for every weapon in one slot.
But the alternate ammo view (R_INVBAR1 / 2) should be implemented.
Weapon icons are totally independent to R_INVBAR1 / 2.

Kind regards,
Seven

PS: Most probably you are referring to this point in your above post, thats why I should stop spamming this thread now. Please be easy with me my friend.

**LambentHammerBurst** · 04-23-2011, 10:30 AM

I said ibar as that's the texture that's used to replace the invbar's. As when I did delete it from my gfx folder - it ended up using the old original instead of the higher res one I had installed.
The MultiRL/Plasma/MultiGL all now use the bar1 again. Doing the Nailguns next. I had to find a way to make the weapon scrolling work again as I had to make those weapons use their original IT_(weapon-name) to do this as it's engine side - thus resulting in me making checks in the weapon scrolling (cycling just requried a single edit).
For the Grapple using bar1 - cannot fix that's engine side and is part of the original design of the weapon. (Boot up Rogue in CTF and it does the same thing).

We both misunderstood eachother

I did know which you were talking about (see my 2nd last paragraph). My last just stated I used Rogue for the large ammo icons as without it, those wouldn't appear.

As those weapons I mentioned are done, I will have another release likely later today.

I am changing something that will change the Lava/Multi/Plasma guns a fair bit. Upon pickup of a RL/NG/LG you will no longer earn any ammo for them - just the normal gun. Reason for this is due to the randomized ammo - which is needed to add those guns to id1/SoA. A normal RL ammo will 25% of the time be Multi (% could increase though). So in DoE the Multi ammo appears much more. So for it I will be making the Multi ammo be the standard ammo 25% of the time too. So in some cases in DoE you could get less Multi-Ammo but you will have more standard ammo.

**LambentHammerBurst** · 04-23-2011, 01:44 PM

Updated test out
Address the Invbar issue Seven mentioned. This sadly does make the Lava/Multi/Plasma to have their own icons on the HUD again. That is hardcoded into the engine - so modders of HUD will have to make a duplicate texture to override the old rogue weapon icons.

The "Remember weapon" hasn't been touched as it is a added game-play feature. I may add a separate impulse command which will always bring out the first weapon in the slot.

The "Grappling Hook" showing the alternate ammo slots when it's out. That's a engine feature too, sadly cannot fix it. Although it was a standard feature for the Grappling Hook in MP2.

As I had to do some HUGE editing to the weapon cycling for the Nailgun/SuperNailgun/GL/RL/LG slots - please give these slots indepth testing. I've fiddled around and I appear to have them working, but others can easily catch something I've missed.

**LambentHammerBurst** · 04-28-2011, 08:28 PM

Did come across one thing that can make MP2 playthroughs possibly more difficult in some cases.
With the weapon randomizations - it's possible to NOT get the standard nailguns and explosive weapons when you are initially are intended to get them. It's overall not a big issue as you will earn the weapon in the next level or whichever - but sometimes not. However if you don't get the standard - you will earn a weapon that you were never intended to have in the first place:
ex) GL -> QTest GL or Prox Launcher

However if this does become a issue, I can add the feature to have the QTest weapons use the alt ammo too.
So you can have a QTest Lava (Super) Nailgun, QTest Multi RL/GL and Multi-Prox Launcher (works the same but explodes with cluster bombs instead). Currently the Chain Lightning can also unlock the Plasma Gun - BUT I can easily make a alternate Plasma Gun too (maybe a BFG equal - more damage, 2 plasma ammo, slower flight).

Although this results in even MORE weapons resulting in 30-31 weapons.
If I do add them:
QTest Multi-GL -> Functions similar to the standard but will fire off to the side like the standard QT-GL. Maybe to add more difference - as the weapon is defined as a "Prototype" the speed and range the weapon fires the projectile will be reduced.
QTest Multi-RL -> Again similar to the standard, but would have the very increased RoF. Maybe to add more difference - as the weapon is defined as a "Prototype" the speed of the projectile and it's cluster will be reduced.
QTest Lava-NG -> Fires Lava Nails like it should. No real difference aside from that. If I was to make it different - very minor speed reduction (next to none).
QTest Lava-SNG ->Like the above, same changes.
Multi-Prox Launcher ->Fires like usual. The projectile would have a yellow glow instead of red. When it detonates - it's identical to the Multi-Grenade explosion.
ChainLightning PlasmaGun ->As the PG is unlocked by having the LG in your inventory and also having Plasma Ammo available - I did do the same with the Chain Lightning. However if I was to make a alternate PlasmaGun via unlocked by Chain Lightning with Plasma Ammo - it'd be a "BFG". 2 ammo used like before. 150-200% more damage over the original on initial impact (chains will do the same) but it will be 50-75% the speed of the original and projectile will be bigger too.

So these are the options:
Keep it as is. Which allows more randomized difficulty too as you can be stuck unlocking the alt-ammo guns later but earn a weapon you were never intended to have instead or use my above suggestions.

However I would like to hear what would be a better suggestion for ChainLightning + Plasma Ammo. Keep it as unlocking the standard Plasma Gun or have it unlock the Alternate version - and for this - I'd like to hear other suggestions too.

**seanstar** · 04-29-2011, 07:57 PM

ChainLightning PlasmaGun

this sounds like a cool idea

i was wondering about gibable corpses and rain effects entering the mod.

umm...i think there's enough types right now without alternates for qtest weapons.

maybe try some damage and rate of fire tweaks to make each qtest weapon seem different....just a suggestion.

**Seven** · 05-01-2011, 02:16 PM

Hello OoPpEe,

I must admit, that I lost your train of thought (lost the plot) while reading through the aboves post.

But I want to tell you my opinion as far as I understood it:
I would NOT go the way with even more weapons.
Even the 24 are a little too much (for my personal opinion).
Reason:
I remember me playing FPS with many weapons.
In the end I used maybe 25% of them.
Didnt you make similar experiences ?
I dont switch weapons for every situation I face.
The normal shotgun or Qtest shotgun for example:
I will quickly learn during gameplay which one i like more, then I will always use it for near combat.
Even more if it uses the same ammo.
Having 24 to cycle through is already pain when using your mouse.
Having 31 makes not much fun in my personal opinion.
Just to have a slightly different effect ?

It is OK, if you have some weapons that you ought to have little later.
For one map you will have it earlier. OK.
Next map the random drop starts again

This is how I see it from my point of view.
It is just my opinion.

Kind regards,
Seven

**LambentHammerBurst** · 05-01-2011, 03:03 PM

Well having all 25/31 weapons in a single episode playthrough isn't likely. Like Episode 1 alone you will never earn:
LG, Plasma, Chain Lightning, Plasma2 (Chain Lightning with Plasma ammo), Mjolnir, Laser Cannon, Enforcer gun.

Episode 2 - you can earn some of them, however due to how often the LG appears - earning all is overall impossible. Repeat for the others.

Reason for the input was due to the possibility of earning the QTest Nailgun instead of the Nailgun, usually the gun only appears once in a map. So you could pick it up, and there can be various Lava Nail ammo around - but you can't use it. Then there's the rare chance the next map - the Nailgun again could be replaced with the QTest Nailgun which results in the same thing. So that's why I figured making them too support the alt ammo.
However this does result in the issue above - weapon cycle can become a b*tch with all those weapons. I've considered adding in a max weapon carry but that will cause more annoyance than good. So left that out. Presently the only option I can think of is overall suggesting the "weapon toss" impulse. That way if you find the version of the gun you like - you toss the other away. I will make a weapon toss bind which tosses the weapon away with NO ammo, so you're not "punished" for discarding a weapon you don't want. Would be useful for co-op and you're low on ammo. Can drop the extra Nailgun you have so your teammate has it (but has to go and pickup ammo).

With this it's hard to find the balance. Having all the guns available was the main idea of the mod. Being able to play id1 maps with Mission Pack weapons thrown in and then playing either Mission Pack with the alternate Mission's weapons thrown in too. Then QTest guns added simply because they were part of Quake's history and many of us old schoolers did enjoy them (I did play QTest back when it was first released), and some of us never experienced them. I myself prefer the QTest Nailgun and RL over the retail ones.
However with this high weapon count, results in the issue you said. You can run into the issue of in the rare chances having 20+ weapons and then the weapon cycle becomes tedious.
The main "work arounds" are the whole weapon limiting. Like being able to hold only 1 (primary) version of the NG - so if you have QTest's - you cannot pick up the standard until you toss the other. However that then forces a user to "toss weapon"
The other is the same as above but does it automatically. However that again would anger players as they may just want to walk over the other for ammo and NOT drop their current version of the Nailgun.
The last (and more what I am leaning towards) is the "No ammo weapon drop" so you can toss the version of the gun you don't like - without losing ammo. This does again force the user to later switch to that gun and then toss it, however allows them to pick the gun up for it's ammo.

Figure the last is the best too as like for myself I love the QTest Nailgun over the id1 Nailgun. However I love having both in my inventory. The QTest version is ideal for taking out a single enemy, the id1 is much better in groups due to the split between the nails. So limiting/force-drop = bad.

So presently the "no ammo weapon drop" is the best choice. However am open to more suggestions as this forces the player to drop the gun manually if they wish.

**LambentHammerBurst** · 06-12-2011, 06:33 PM

Did some more working on, project has been kinda put on hold as ShadowBorg is doing a update to his weapon tutorial for the Expo - the same tutorial I used to allow these weapons. So Don't wanna have to redo everything lmao.

Now when I was testing out my Horn of Conjuring model I did notice it (obviously) doesn't spawn DoE enemies. I also did notice that is actually in reality only spawns a small selection of enemies:
Dog
Ogre
Fiend
Shambler

No others enemies I've seen ever spawn and to that's a VERY small selection. So I'd like some input on this:
Should I make it capable of spawning any enemy (minus bosses obviously) and underwater enemies.
Or should I make it only spawn select enemies and if so which enemies?

I also want to make this powerup available in DM/CTF however not in the sense of spawning a enemy to work alongside you but something randomized. Basically a random powerup. Pick it up and when the horn sound plays you can get quad damage, pent, ect. I was thinking of making capable of giving the player ANY powerup (including bio suit and scuba suit). This could make it a very powerful powerup or a useless one (getting scuba suit on a map with no thunderbolt or water for example).
This sound good or what do you think would be better?

**Seven** · 06-13-2011, 04:50 AM

Dear OoPpEe,

Reading the code in "HIPSPAWN" reveals the process behind the Horn.
The ".spawnfunction" declares which creature will be spawned (as you surely know a zombie is also declared).

Regarding your 1st question:
I remember, when I played Mission Pack 1 the last time (around 10 years ago), that in Single Player the spawned creatures was not random.
It was adjusted to your progress in the game.
So the first time I found the horn, a small and helpless dog was spawned.

He was killed quicker than I could see him. LOL

But I would keep this idea in your mod as well, because it would be unfair if a shambler would be spawned the first time you find the horn.
He would kill all enemies for you (cause there are only weak ones in these early maps).

Spawning water creatures would not be a smart thing to do, cause the horn is never in water as far as I remember.

And a spawnpoint for the horn itself, can only be changed via the bsp file itself or via .ent file:

{
"target" "4000"
"origin" "-840 1744 992"
"classname" "item_hornofconjuring"
"spawnflags" "2048"
}

So you could spawn a horn inside water, but I would avoid it, cause if you decide to go with random creatures it can happen that an eel is spawned on land. Which may not be useful.
Or you "if...then..." it out of your code (depending on situation)

Other than that, fell free to spawn them all.

It doubles the fun and the excitement.

Regarding your 2nd question:
Your idea for multiplayer is brilliant.
Making the horn a random item spawner !
But please a little more likely to get a positive item rather than a negative (wetsuit).
That is much more exciting and really fun in multiplayer.

Kind regards,
Seven

**LambentHammerBurst** · 06-13-2011, 08:55 AM

The Horn does randomize, load up hipdm1 in SP and pick it up, see what it gives, restart and pick up again. Repeat 5 times and you'll get different setups. Just did (except more than 5) - I got a Shambler/Dog, Ogre/Ogre, Fiend/Fiend, Ogre/Fiend, Dog/Dog. That map spawns 2 enemies so it's possible that I could of got a Shambler/Shambler combo but it took 9 restarts to get one of them - but is possible to - even on the first Horn pickup in the game - it can happen. Make a save at the first pickup of it and then pick it up - reload save - repeat. Eventually you can get the Shambler.
It can spawn a zombie? That surprises me as in non-modded SoA he'd basically be unkillable but looking above the Shambler's spawn code he can appear. I wonder why I've never had him spawn in my years of Quake - unless in his code he gets replaced (will check when I get home).

So code shows: Dog, Ogre, Shambler, Fiend, Zombie
That's still a very small selection. Need some DoE enemies in there too.
Which enemies should be able to spawn? I will obviously keep the very strong with low percentage.

Edit: About the water, yes that's why I said water and bosses shouldn't be spawned. A Eel and Rotfish *could* operate outside of water - basically just act like a Scrag in movement really. For a "useless" factor with a low percentage I could try and make them too spawn but instead they'd flop on the ground and die shortly after lol

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