Coming Spring 2013...

[golden_boy]

So, a map with a minlight in worldspawn is more prone to looking too uniform as opposed to a map using local minlights, which allow the minlight to be set on a case by case basis. Makes sense, if I understand correctly, that is.

Pretty much, yeah. Make sure you have some nice strong shadows in a couple places that people are going to notice, and you can get away with some local minlights in other places. Don't make them too bright (40 or 50 might work), rather put in more light sources so the light level is "explained".

Don't sweat too much over it either, rather ship your level and apply what you've learnt to the next one.

Oh, and make sure the main route through the level is well lit, remember players gotta see where they're going.

[KillPixel]

Very interesting. Obviously, I didn't know about local minlights either.

This avoids the "global minlight" look that can get your map labeled as newbish.

So, a map with a minlight in worldspawn is more prone to looking too uniform as opposed to a map using local minlights, which allow the minlight to be set on a case by case basis. Makes sense, if I understand correctly, that is.

Good tip, that's a subtle thing that probably wouldn't have occurred to me until after a lot of work and experimenting. Thanks for pointing this out before I go reset 800 lights.

Oh God...who knows how ass-backwards I did everything else... /facepalm

[golden_boy]

I'd advise against global minlight from worldspawn, not because I'm against it on principle but because in my experience, local minlights (delay 4? I forget) and ambient sunlight (_sunlight3) are better.

Local minlights allow you to keep a minimum light level in areas where you want it, while having 100% black shadows in other parts of the map. This avoids the "global minlight" look that can get your map labeled as newbish.

_sunlight3 is like minlight that only affects areas adjacent to sky.

This allows finer grained control over where you want some minimal light level and where you don't.

It's also worth it to experiment with two or more light entities per light source - for example a low brightness but large distance light to get a certain level of brightness in the area, combined with a bright delay 2 light to get the impression of a bright ball of light near the light source.

do lights have an effect if their value is less or equal to the one set in worldspawn?

To be honest I don't remember. But it is easy enough to test.

[KillPixel]

Oh, but you can.

Using AguirRe's light tool (or MH's), you can give lights a "wait" key that affects the distance over which it falls off. So "wait 0.5" would make the light reach twice as far.

The "delay" key controls different falloff formulas; you might want to try "delay 2" for an inverse square falloff that is closer to what light does in real life. Depends what you're going for.

It pays off to read this: http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/readmevis.txt

Many, many thanks. Wow, this is great. I should have read this a long time ago.

I see mangle and antilights in that documentation, too. Sunlight will come in handy, but I have a feeling antilights are a tool I will always use liberally.

Before now, my lighting was subject to a very narrow restriction, that restriction being the ability to maintain an average light level and still have hard shadows/contrast and bright/dim areas.

Now I can ensure a minimum brightness by putting the value into worldspawn, and then use antilghts/lights to make areas darker/brighter if I so wish. Holy shit, total control. That makes way more sense, your canvas should be your dominant brightness level, not utter freakin' darkness.

Now I just need to know if light brightness is cumulative in reference to the brightness of worldspawn. In other words, do lights have an effect if their value is less or equal to the one set in worldspawn?

I'll figure all this out tonight. Not a day went past when I would work on this map and not lament the lack of light tools. No more!

[golden_boy]

I wish I could manipulate the light brightness and radius independently.

Oh, but you can.

Using AguirRe's light tool (or MH's), you can give lights a "wait" key that affects the distance over which it falls off. So "wait 0.5" would make the light reach twice as far.

The "delay" key controls different falloff formulas; you might want to try "delay 2" for an inverse square falloff that is closer to what light does in real life. Depends what you're going for.

It pays off to read this: http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/readmevis.txt

[Syluxguy28O3]

man its been a while since anyone has done a map project around here. Nice to finally blow some dust off of that department!

[KillPixel]

@Kliffinton - Oh, there will be updates...mwuahhahahahhAHHAHAHA

@golden_boy - I've been reading about vis blocking and other methods of optimization... If I had known more (anything, really) about BSP in particular and mapping in general I would have been more wise in my brush usage...

Yeah, the map (or at least the bit that I show) is pretty dark. Unfortunately, lighting controls just don't exist in my current set up. In many areas, if I make a light brighter I lose the shadows and contrast that I worked so hard to get. I wish I could manipulate the light brightness and radius independently.

Just a few days ago I was studying e3m6 and noticed you could do spotlights with info_null. Before that I was building tall shafts in the ceiling and putting a really bright light at the end and an illusionary brush at the other to ghetto-rig spotlights. Still, in some situations that method produces a better effect so its not a total loss.

Also, reworking some rooms gave me tons of verts back, so that's all good. Don't tell me I can go past 65k verts, this map has to end sometime!

I have DQ capped at 800 fps and it never drops below that, DP hovers around 1200 fps (I think). Some people may have to ditch their 486 to play this, but it should run fine for most people.

[golden_boy]

vis blocking helps r_speeds; func_wall helps compile time, but remember func_walls cast no shadows.

I'll second the impression of "rather dark". Keep in mind a map first and foremost has to be playable; it is not a movie, it is a game and the player needs to be able to see.

Might want to do some test runs in RMQe or DirectQ; if it runs fast enough in there, the culprit probably isn't your map. Darkplaces has always been a little slower than those (in my experience).

You can get around your vertex limit by using BSP2, if necessary, but there are 2 versions of that (the one DP uses and the one everything else uses) so you'd have to require certain engines. But if you can stay under the limit, all the better.

[Kliffington]

I am all for this!
Checking in for updates

[KillPixel]

VERY cool stuff. Dig the Aliens vibe you have going on with the level design. Can't wait!

Thanks bro, I hope ya dig it!

[KillPixel]

Thanks for your (appropriately cryptic) thoughts, MadGypsy! It's good to see I did pretty well on the important stuff (gameplay, interesting environments). Ok, now for damage control...

1) one area in particular must have like 50gigs of brushes and my FPS dropped to 1 in that area.

Yeah, keep in mind I'm first timer in the world of mapping. I had a feeling that 3000 visible leafs may lag a computer or two. Running DQ on a boss machine I drop to 300 fps in that area. Oddly, in DP with FULL lights I get around 30.

Needless to say, this is has been addressed in a big way. Also, that was an expensive room and I need most of those resources back as I'm getting too close to my limit of ~65k vertexes.

2) a couple of areas have some insane r_speeds

I don't know what that is.

EDIT: Google is my friend. Well that sucks. Maybe func_wall could help?

3) this map is pretty dark

It is dark, but not too dark. I'm building this on a calibrated monitor in total darkness (my precious...). Also, most lighting is tentative at the moment, it won't be brighter necessarily, just better lit. I haven't gotten the nerve to go back and relight the current ~800 lights. Oh, and I'm a shameless Doom 3 fanboi...EAT IT.

@KillPixel - FUK that stupid ogre by the steps...where the hell is that thing coming from? Even after getting killed by him twice and knowing exactly where he will be, he still got me AGAIN!

Hmmm... that doesn't sound like fun, nothing like getting killed by the "level gods". There is going to be a private beta before release so I can iron most of the remaining bugs. It's hard to find faults and exploits when you know how the map is "supposed" to be played.

Anyway, I will say this. Aside from music, sex and sunshine, level deign/mapping is one of the most stimulating things I've ever done and I'm having a friggin' blast.

[MadGypsy]

I'm special (not in a retar..err mentally challenged way) and killpixel let me play this level (pays to be a qc programmer sometimes)

I will give you all my very honest opinion for his map at this stage (keep in mind this is a WIP)

The good:
1) non-stop action
2) lots of secrets
3) always on the edge of your ammo and health
4) really clean and interesting geometry
5) there is a bit of a puzzle going on in some areas.

the bad:
1) one area in particular must have like 50gigs of brushes and my FPS dropped to 1 in that area.
2) a couple of areas have some insane r_speeds
3) this map is pretty dark (edit: I forgot my monitor is set to a very low brightness so I don't get headaches programming hours straight. Maybe it's not so dark as I think.)

Overall though, Imma say that the pictures don't say anything about this map. They give you an idea of how it will look, but kill pixel has a way of sneaking monsters right into you and you dont even realize it til you are getting your ass kicked.

@KillPixel - FUK that stupid ogre by the steps...where the hell is that thing coming from? Even after getting killed by him twice and knowing exactly where he will be, he still got me AGAIN!

also: A shambler?! It aint time for a shambler yet, man. I'm doing my thing with grunts and enforcers up in that area and RAWWWWG! pssh, that aint right man. I avoided the hell out of that on the next play.

PS> I hope I was cryptic enough for this comment to be acceptable KP. If not tell m what you don't like and I will edit/erase it.

[rdmusic]

VERY cool stuff. Dig the Aliens vibe you have going on with the level design. Can't wait!

[R00k]

looks faithful but new. spacy

[PRIMEVAL]

Creamby