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  • #46
    Originally posted by wicked_lord View Post
    Stop & Frisk is NOT the same as Search & Seizure, this is where people have the misunderstanding.
    No, but it's kinda like a DUI checkpoint, and I know you're aware of how many defense attournies have had arrests and convictions thrown out because they proved the practice to be unconstitutional in court. A LEO's badge says he can enforce law, not interpret it, and a lawyer outranks him in that regard.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Focalor View Post
      No, but it's kinda like a DUI checkpoint, and I know you're aware of how many defense attournies have had arrests and convictions thrown out because they proved the practice to be unconstitutional in court. A LEO's badge says he can enforce law, not interpret it, and a lawyer outranks him in that regard.
      Please don't spread false information.

      The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that in the case of DUI checkpoints, our Fourth Amendment rights don't apply. That court found that the state's interest in reducing drunk driving outweighs the "minor infringement" on a driver's Constitutional rights.

      Driving is a privilege, NOT a right.

      A bunch of Law Enforcement Agencies have started doing "Safety Checkpoints" which are used in the same fashion. You roll into a checkpoint, I can legally ask for your ID and you must comply and hand it over, I am going to check your headlights, taillights, high beams, tire tread, and make sure your vehicle is safe to be driving on the road, Now when you roll down that window and I am talking to you and I smell alcohol or marijuana emitting from the vehicle, Now I have probable cause to hold you and conduct a field sobriety test. Also most check point's are announced publicly and are printed on social media, newspaper's and other form's to allow the public to know they will be conducting one. If you are stupid enough to be under the influence and drive knowing there is a checkpoint on such and such road, that is your fault if you get caught and arrested.

      I posted a link so you can read about DUI check points.
      Are DUI Checkpoints Unconstitutional?

      Comment


      • #48
        It's not false information. False information would be the "Over the limit - under arrest" commercials the police used to do. You can blow under the limit and still catch a DUI. The old "zero tolerance" campaign was far more accurate.

        I don't HAVE to show anyone my ID unless they have probable cause to suspect me of a specific crime. It's not a crime to drive in the vicinity of a police officer. Just like you don't HAVE to submit a DNA swab when being booked in on a misdemeanor, but LEO's gonna tell you that you do because a lawyer probably won't be right there to tell you otherwise.

        It's kinda weird that you posted that link. Did you read the whole page? Some states have laws prohibiting it. The rest "allow" it, precisely because they can't make a law that overrides the 4th amendment, and a lawyer defending someone under the right circumstances can still have it thrown out. Says so in black and white.

        When it becomes a requirement to pass the state bar exam to become a cop, maybe I'll start considering them qualified enough to give sound interpretations of the law. Lawyers eventually become judges, cops don't. Why is that?

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        • #49
          @Focalor you are boring

          please do something quake related
          the invasion has begun! hide your children, grab the guns, and pack sandwiches.

          syluxman2803

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          • #50
            I know a perfect way to spice up the next debate:

            Give both Trump and Clinton rocket launchers and let them fire at each other!

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            • #51
              Even better: whoever can get to Clinton's printed classified emails first and deliver it to their respected locations (trump's campaign staff/the paper shredder) by way of rocket jump wins.

              YOU'RE GONNA CARRY THAT WEIGHT...

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Focalor View Post
                It's not false information. False information would be the "Over the limit - under arrest" commercials the police used to do. You can blow under the limit and still catch a DUI. The old "zero tolerance" campaign was far more accurate.

                I don't HAVE to show anyone my ID unless they have probable cause to suspect me of a specific crime. It's not a crime to drive in the vicinity of a police officer. Just like you don't HAVE to submit a DNA swab when being booked in on a misdemeanor, but LEO's gonna tell you that you do because a lawyer probably won't be right there to tell you otherwise.

                It's kinda weird that you posted that link. Did you read the whole page? Some states have laws prohibiting it. The rest "allow" it, precisely because they can't make a law that overrides the 4th amendment, and a lawyer defending someone under the right circumstances can still have it thrown out. Says so in black and white.

                When it becomes a requirement to pass the state bar exam to become a cop, maybe I'll start considering them qualified enough to give sound interpretations of the law. Lawyers eventually become judges, cops don't. Why is that?
                Some state's banned it due to being uncertain about the effect's of the stop and frisk in the court of law, It's a gray area and as I also stated above, an officer still need's reasonable suspicion to stop and frisk you.

                If you are stopped in a motor vehicle and asked for ID you must provide ID. Refusal to do so will result in arrest guaranteed and NO lawyer/attorney in their right mind will try and get you off that charge. Driving a vehicle is not "your right", as I said above, it is a privilege.

                Also remember, a peace officer can arrest you for anything they think is an arrestable offense or a gray area, It is up to the District/State attorney's office whether or not to pursue the charges against you. A judge may release you during a first appearance also known as "Released on Own Recognizance " or "ROR" and toss out the charges if they do not agree with the reason you were arrested. As for anything being done to the officer, nothing, even a lawyer would tell you it's not worth going after. We can quarterback this all day long, But I can assure you, as many case as I have seen regarding the 4th amendment and driving a vehicle, it's a rare sight that someone get's off on the charges when they fail to provide an driver's license at a safety check point or during a traffic stop.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by wicked_lord View Post
                  ... an officer still need's reasonable suspicion to stop and frisk you.

                  If you are stopped in a motor vehicle and asked for ID you must provide ID. Refusal to do so will result in arrest guaranteed and NO lawyer/attorney in their right mind will try and get you off that charge. Driving a vehicle is not "your right", as I said above, it is a privilege.
                  Well that's the thing, a traffic stop is pretty much the same thing as stop and frisk. An officer needs that "reasonable suspicion" aka probable cause to stop me in traffic. They can't just pick me out of a crowd completely at random and then attempt to discover something citable. That's harassment, and a lawyer will certainly represent me if I'm being harassed. Driving might be a privilege, but a cop still doesn't have the right to harass you.

                  A cop will approach you and ask you, "Do you know why I pulled you over?" because they want you to admit guilt. If you say, "No, why?", it is their responsibility to inform you of the reasonable suspicion that they have of any laws you may have broken etc. If they won't tell you why they pulled you over and what unlawful activity they suspect you of, then it's reasonable to assume that it's an illegal stop. In such cases, an officer has no right to ask for your ID, and I will certainly refuse to hand it over willingly. If they wanna lay hands on me, cuff me, and go through my pockets to find it, they can certainly do it and I won't fight them. But when they show up to court with nothing other than "Uh, he didn't wanna show me his ID." and my lawyer simply says, "It was an illegal stop.", that judge isn't gonna be too happy with that cop.

                  I've been unfairly targeted by what I consider to be "discrimination" due to items of clothing I was wearing while riding a motorcycle. I've refused to show ID before because they refused to inform me of any specific crime I was being investigated for. I told them I'd be happy to get my lawyer on the phone for them, who is VERY well known to law enforcement in my state, and he would tell them that he has advised me to decline to voluntarily show my ID without probable cause. They declined the offer and sent me on my way without ever seeing my ID. But they were nice enough to follow me for another 5 or 6 miles... probably for my own safety's sake, right?

                  If I had been carrying my permit weapon on me... might've been a different story. You gotta show ID if you have a gun on you. Them knowing you have that gun is all the reasonable suspicion they need to detain you, whether they knew it prior to illegally stopping you or discovered it afterwards. And regardless of other circumstances, as per the permit, you're legally required to show the permit any time LEO asks for it if that weapon is on you.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Focalor View Post
                    If I had been carrying my permit weapon on me... might've been a different story. You gotta show ID if you have a gun on you. Them knowing you have that gun is all the reasonable suspicion they need to detain you, whether they knew it prior to illegally stopping you or discovered it afterwards. And regardless of other circumstances, as per the permit, you're legally required to show the permit any time LEO asks for it if that weapon is on you.
                    This is entirely wrong within some states. I live in FL and in FL we do not have to show an officer our CWFL (concealed weapons firearms license) unless asked by the officer to see your permit. Some states require you to tell the officer if you are carrying and to provide your permit. It's known as "Duty to Inform".

                    Also in FL we do not have a firearm's registry, It is actually illegal in all 50 states (Hawaii on the other hand has made it clear they will be keeping a registry of all newly purchased firearms, and I can assure you a lawsuit is to come once they start it).

                    Officer's are trained that when you stop someone you MUST have reason to stop them. We have what are called Primary Stops and Secondary Stops. Ex: Texting and driving in FL is a secondary offense, I can not stop you for that reason alone, I must find another reason to stop you as a primary stop, So I can legally follow you until you swerve, failure to use a turn signal, speed, actually in some area's driving under the speed limit is illegal as well considering it impede's traffic, but a primary reason is the easy to find and stop you. So many law's on the books in every state that it was once said "Every day you drive you commit 5 traffic infraction's without even knowing you did it."

                    Unfortunately for you, you can keep bringing up the lawyer's just like most people do, and fortunately for law enforcement officer's who hear it on the daily, they know 98% of the time, your threat is as good as a dead goat, useless. You don't think officer's hear it all the time? Oh trust me I know from first hand experience, That is exactly why if you go on youtube and you see these clown's who are "law students" threatening to sue the cop's and in the end all that happens is, the return of your dead goat.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by wicked_lord View Post
                      This is entirely wrong within some states. I live in FL and in FL we do not have to show an officer our CWFL (concealed weapons firearms license) unless asked by the officer to see your permit. Some states require you to tell the officer if you are carrying and to provide your permit. It's known as "Duty to Inform".

                      Also in FL we do not have a firearm's registry, It is actually illegal in all 50 states (Hawaii on the other hand has made it clear they will be keeping a registry of all newly purchased firearms, and I can assure you a lawsuit is to come once they start it).

                      Officer's are trained that when you stop someone you MUST have reason to stop them. We have what are called Primary Stops and Secondary Stops. Ex: Texting and driving in FL is a secondary offense, I can not stop you for that reason alone, I must find another reason to stop you as a primary stop, So I can legally follow you until you swerve, failure to use a turn signal, speed, actually in some area's driving under the speed limit is illegal as well considering it impede's traffic, but a primary reason is the easy to find and stop you. So many law's on the books in every state that it was once said "Every day you drive you commit 5 traffic infraction's without even knowing you did it."

                      Unfortunately for you, you can keep bringing up the lawyer's just like most people do, and fortunately for law enforcement officer's who hear it on the daily, they know 98% of the time, your threat is as good as a dead goat, useless. You don't think officer's hear it all the time? Oh trust me I know from first hand experience, That is exactly why if you go on youtube and you see these clown's who are "law students" threatening to sue the cop's and in the end all that happens is, the return of your dead goat.

                      That's exactly what I said. If they ask to see it, you show it, or you probably lose your permit. I'm in that terrible green place just above you, btw. If they know you have it on you, (and I always tell them when I have it even if they don't ask... because I'm smart and don't wanna get capped) they're not gonna accept having to let you ride away with a gun on you like they might let you go without seeing ID if you're unarmed and they can't ticket you for anything else.

                      Having a lawyer isn't for suing cops. (I don't sue people, I handle my own problems) It's for protecting me from them. I do everything so that I'll never have to encounter cops to begin with. But if they still wanna pester me, thats what my legal rep handles.
                      Last edited by Focalor; 09-30-2016, 03:08 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Focalor View Post
                        That's exactly what I said. If they ask to see it, you show it, or you probably lose your permit. I'm in that terrible green place just above you, btw. If they know you have it on you, (and I always tell them when I have it even if they don't ask... because I'm smart and don't wanna get capped) they're not gonna accept having to let you ride away with a gun on you like they might let you go without seeing ID if you're unarmed and they can't ticket you for anything else.

                        Having a lawyer isn't for suing cops. (I don't sue people, I handle my own problems) It's for protecting me from them. I do everything so that I'll never have to encounter cops to begin with. But if they still wanna pester me, thats what my legal rep handles.
                        You have open carry in GA, if you are riding your bike, why not just OC it? They would still need probable cause to stop you, having a firearm is not probable cause to stop someone and check for a permit. Refer to HB-60 if you want to verify it.

                        I am a member of FOC "Florida Open Carry" and we have affiliation's with other OC group's such as Geogia Carry, Texas Open Carry, etc.

                        I am permitted to carry in all 50 state's, you may ask how so, So I will explain. I work as an armored merchant guard, my job is transporting highly secured valuable's across the country, We do not go to Hawaii, or Alaska. I openly carry in uniform and conceal when in plain clothes which is 90% of the time I am working as we try and stay incognito.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Dunno who told you we have open carry. We definitely don't. You open carry here and you're gonna have big problems, probably medical ones if you know what I mean. Only way to carry here is permit only, no waistband or belt holsters, must be a shoulder holster under a coat or something.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Focalor View Post
                            Dunno who told you we have open carry. We definitely don't. You open carry here and you're gonna have big problems, probably medical ones if you know what I mean. Only way to carry here is permit only, no waistband or belt holsters, must be a shoulder holster under a coat or something.
                            You need to update yourself on the law's then, Open Carry WITH a permit is legal. I study every single state's laws on the legality of carrying a firearm concealed or openly as I travel this entire country coast to coast, border to border, and even cross into Canada (fully armed) for my work. I open carry in Georgia all the time in plain clothes and in uniform (obviously).

                            Link's are provided for you below, Otherwise consult your "lawyer" for more information.

                            Georgia is not a traditional open carry state. However, open carry IS legal with a Georgia permit. It is also worthy of note that you MAY openly carry a firearm without a permit in a motor vehicle.

                            Georgia | OpenCarry.org

                            Georgia protects the right to bear arms under Article I, Section I of the state constitution, but this does not mean that everyone may carry a gun, or that you may always carry a gun wherever you like. Georgia requires a weapons carry license to openly carry a weapon, or to carry a concealed weapon on (or near) your body. (Ga. Code Ann. 16-11-125.1.) For more information on permitting laws

                            Open and Concealed Gun Carry Laws in Georgia | Criminal Law

                            Georgia Gun Laws | Criminal Law

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                            • #59
                              That's open carry with a permit though, not plain old open carry like they do in- well, I was gonna say Texas, but it appears they changed that. That's the open carry I was referring to. I've seen the youtube videos of these dumbasses walking around in public with their AR strapped to their backs just hoping a cop will mess with them about it. I'm all for gun owners rights, but I'm definitely not one of THOSE redneck idiots. They invite harassment, which is why I won't open carry. If you wanna protect yourself, fine, but there's no need to freak people out. But honestly I wasn't aware open carry with permit was legal here. I still wouldn't personally do it though.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                According to the polls I have seen this week, it seems I was correct about Hillary getting a hair boost in the polls. There are a lot of things that make this complicated though. There are other polls which show trump in a favorable light in lieu of the debate and there are "experts" explaining how "Hillary got a jump BUT Donald Trump blah blah blah". So, IDFK. If we go by just the decided voters voting, it would seem to be exactly what I thought it would be. I said her boost would be within the margin of error and according to the polls I have seen, that seems to be true.

                                TUESDAY! Probably 8pm central - DEBATE #2. Y'all know I'm going to "heads up" it here within 30 minutes of it starting.
                                http://www.nextgenquake.com

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