This is the dumbest "based on a true story" movie idea I have ever seen

[DeathMaster]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzL0qrSDy_o"]DENIAL - Featurette[/ame]

We all know the Holocaust happened. In fact, it's one of the most well documented mass murders in human history. So, it's obvious that this guy saying that the Holocaust did not happen is ill informed, apparently to the point of taking this case to court.

But, you know what I find more stupid? The fact that they're making a fucking biopic about one guy who said a major historical event didn't happen and took it to court, documenting the "struggle" of someone proving reality. Wow.

And you know what hurts just as much? Since it came out late in the year and has to do with the Holocaust it's probably going to get nominated for an Oscar. You can tell they're grasping for it, they really want that golden dildo statue. If they don't get it, pffft it's fine, we made it for only $6 million.

This is my main problem with modern movies; they're grasping for awards by adapting every true story, every anxious sob story they can find so they can attach an actor to it and get sympathy points from the Academy. The acting feels so goddamned stilted, I like Rachel Weisz but she feels like she isn't trying here. The story itself is just uninteresting, there's no emotional weight because the outcome is obvious, the actors sound like they want to shoot themselves, and it just comes off as a sympathy piece for the lady getting sued by this guy.

[Baker]

If you don't like something, ignore it.

Instead your plan is to help market something you don't like by spreading the word about it.

You are an enabler of --- what according to you is --- "a low quality work" because you are helping spread the word about their work.

You aren't being part of the solution. They are using you to cause you to assist in promoting their work.

This is why people suck. People will say they don't like something, then help it grow.

[Voros]

^Marketing techniques, I tell you. They can you use you in so many ways.

They're using you DeathMaster. Run while you still can. Shit on it as much as possible.

On a more serious note, that is a crappy idea for a movie.

[DeathMaster]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_xqLaj0tvM"]What's the Internet?[/ame]

In that case Baker, I acknowledge your reality, reject it, and substitute my own.

[Mugwump]

Funny that this should come up just a few hours after Focalor accused MadGypsy of anti-semitism...

What's the Internet?

Now THIS was a good movie! Probably my all time favorite Kevin Smith movie. Gonna have to watch it again, it's been too long.

[MadGypsy]

Why is it antisemetic to challenge the holocaust and how do "we all know it happened?"

I know a couple facts about the holocaust. 60 million people died. 6 million jews (not really cause there weren't even 6 million jews in all of Europe but, that's another story) and 54,000,000 other people.

54 MILLION people died fighting for/against or caught in the crossfire

Call me whatever you want. I don't hate jews I hate lies and gross exaggerations.

Did you know that the "6 million jewish deaths" was exaggerated in order to fulfill a Jewish prophecy? The number is barely half that. Look it up, there weren't 6 million jews in all of Europe. There would also be no Jews if 6mil died back then. It would have been complete genocide.

To be clear. Yes a whole lot of terrible thing happened back then to lots of Jews. I believe that. Holocaust though? naaaaah. Then there is the other fact. Jews at that point had been kicked out of EVERY country that they inhabited for hundreds of years. Why? There is this whole Jewish pity party going on but, nobody has ever liked the Jews. NOBODY (ie no country would put up with them).

[DeathMaster]

It's not anti-semitic to challenge that, I didn't imply that whatsoever. It is, however, ignoring the fact that Hitler targeted Jews specifically; the average number based on collected data is around 5.93 million Jewish were killed by Hitler out of the 8.86 million living in Europe. The general figure of 6 million came from senior SS official Adolf Eichmann. It is true that collectively more people of other ethnicities were killed than the Jewish, but comparing numbers more Jews were killed than any other group. For reference, other popular victims include Soviet POWs (2-3 million), ethnic Poles (1.8-2 million) and Serbs (300,000-500,000).

Examples of Nazi Anti-Jewish Propaganda:
Der Jude
Kriegsanstifter, Kriegsverlangerer
...and my personal favorite...

He did have propaganda against other countries, but they had to do with the concept that they were Jewish figureheads:
USSR
USA
Der Jude Strikes Back

I don't think you're a Nazi, Gypsy, I think you're merely asking questions, which is good. That's part of the reason this damned movie is going to suck, because it only displays one side of the story while demonizing the other. But another problem is the fact that this movie blows up a situation that, quite frankly, is a stupid squabble between scholars. I won't get personal on this, all I can say is that there are things that are up for debate and there are things that are concrete, and I think the evidence here is pretty solid. If you want to refute that claim, I won't hate you for it.

[Focalor]

official numbers show that 5.93 million Jewish were killed...

I'd like to know how and who says that number is "official", because from everything I've ever heard on the subject, there never was one single "official" number due to the huge amounts of people circulated into the different extermination and work camp systems and the fact that not ALL of the documentation was recovered/recoverable in order to tally an official final count.

It's not anti-semitic to challenge that,...

Challenging means you're questioning it and demanding proof. The proof is there. Deny it, or don't, makes no difference. But claiming that a Jewish person who was or was not a victim of the Holocaust can't be trusted to provide an accurate account of their experiences or the experiences of those were there simply because they ARE JEWISH... that's clearly discrimination. It's no different from someone telling Phenom he can't be trusted to have a valid accurate opinion or accounting of slavery because he's black. Anybody got the balls to say that? Go ahead. And if nobody else here can understand this concept, then I don't know what the hell else to say.

[DeathMaster]

The main consensus is around that number, poor wording on my part (edited the post for clarity). Also, if Gypsy were anti-semitic wouldn't he be praising it as an achievement? It seems like you're grasping for an excuse to turn people against him. It's actually a lot different from your example because he's merely challenging the historical event, not saying that Jewish people can't be a part of the discussion. Tell me, Focalor, are you Jewish? If not, then why are you mad?

[Focalor]

...wouldn't he be praising it as an achievement?

Claiming that Jewish people aren't to be trusted to tell the truth about the Holocaust... or that Jewish people have effectively spread lies about the Holocaust... sounds like praising to you? Not to me.

I could say that slavery was terrible and not praise slavery as a good thing, but I could then say that black people can't be trusted to tell the truth about slavery (implying that all blacks are liars - a discriminatory idea), and I'd be racist.

Really? You don't see the connection? Not at all?

It's actually a lot different from your example because he's merely challenging the historical event, not saying that Jewish people can't be a part of the discussion.

None written or published by Jews... (<--referring to history accounts)

...

You can watch all the docjewmentaries you want, you aren't learning any facts for the most part.

I disagree. I interpret this statement to mean that Jews are telling more lies than truths about WW2. Challenging the event? That's a pretty short-sighted way of looking at it and only taking it at face value from a brief glance. I've seen plenty of these websites detailing such "challenges", and they all have a common theme: to attempt to supplant the known facts about the Holocaust and to display the Jewish people in a negative light. And the more you read their "challenges", the more their motivations become clear.

And my ethnicity is not a factor in this discussion, nor am I mad.

[DeathMaster]

Claiming that Jewish people aren't to be trusted to tell the truth about the Holocaust... or that Jewish people have effectively spread lies about the Holocaust... sounds like praising to you? Not to me.

I could say that slavery was terrible and not praise slavery as a good thing, but I could then say that black people can't be trusted to tell the truth about slavery (implying that all blacks are liars - a discriminatory idea), and I'd be racist.

Really? You don't see the connection? Not at all?

Not really. Saying that black people can't tell the truth about racism is illogical, granted, but it's not racist. I can understand why someone would think that because of the person in question's involvement, it means extra sympathy on their part because they're of a certain creed/race. That doesn't imply that all blacks are liars, and saying that Jewish people can't be trusted when talking about the Holocaust doesn't mean that all Jews are liars either. It just means that they could have a biased perspective.

Like I said earlier, if he really were anti-semitic, would he not be praising the Holocaust? Wouldn't he be like "Goddamn, if Hitler had just pushed a little harder, those long nosed scum-fucks would be off the face of the Earth! We were so close...". You're right about him implying that the Jews are bloating the situation, but does that mean that he hates them all? What I think he's saying is that their views of the Holocaust are incredibly sympathetic towards them, and to some degree he's right.

Look, I don't agree with him either, but I think you're being a little hyperbolic by calling him an anti-semite.

[Focalor]

I didn't use the hypothetical of blacks describing racism, I used the hypothetical of blacks describing the event of slavery. Wording it differently kinda jumbles the intent of my parallel comparison of jews and the Holocaust with blacks and slavery. Slavery and the Holocaust were things that happened because of racist ideas. And most of the people I've ever come across that are Holocaust deniers or Holocaust doubters tend to be people with racist ideas towards jews. Remember how I said these 9/11 conspiracy sites like to ask questions rather than providing clear answers about what they're attempting to convey because they know it's just libelous remarks? These anti-jew sites do the same thing. And so did MadGypsy...

To be clear. Yes a whole lot of terrible thing happened back then to lots of Jews. I believe that. Holocaust though? naaaaah. Then there is the other fact. Jews at that point had been kicked out of EVERY country that they inhabited for hundreds of years. Why? There is this whole Jewish pity party going on but, nobody has ever liked the Jews. NOBODY (ie no country would put up with them).

Does he ever attempt the answer the question of WHY he thinks they keep getting kicked out of so many places and WHY nobody likes them? No, he implies things by questioning it. He allows the reader to draw their own conclusions and believe what they WANT to believe. Because if he were as specific as he could possibly be, he'd probably be saying the exact same things that Goebbels said about jews in his several filmed public speeches that we can still view today. And Goebbels was most definitely preaching anti-semitic ideas... unless we want to make the argument that Goebbels was "challenging" or "questioning" the nature of the jewish person.

The ONLY reason I use the term anti-semitic to describe his position is, as I said, all the sites that feature that same dialogue about the subject tend to clearly show a tendency to ALWAYS describe Jewish people negatively, whether they explicitly state up front that they are anti-Jewish themselves or not.

You know what, fine, here's what I think is an appropriate compromise. I won't call HIM anti-semitic anymore. (Which I'm sure I did, and in hindsight, I probably should've been less tenacious about it and done what I'm proposing from the start. My bad.) But I WILL call his IDEAS anti-semitic. Because in my opinion, they are. Cool? Anyone and everyone can disagree with my opinion and the terminology I use for his idea on the subject. Honestly, I'm a little bored with talking about the subject over and over and saying nothing new about it.

[MadGypsy]

I'll be quite honest with all of you. The waters are so muddied regarding the holocaust that I'm not sure what the truth is. I could find strong arguments either way and both by numerous "scholars".

I will say this though. I really appreciate those that didn't just hop on the "Gypsy hates Jews" train regarding what I said. I like to question things. I have been fascinated with ww2 my entire life... or at least as long as I can remember. I have easily 100 documentaries on DVD and I've read everything from Nazi to Jew sites regarding the subject... even Jew sites that sympathize with the nazis o.O. To say I have spent about 20 years on this subject (not just the jewish related parts) would be very accurate. I also have (well, had) family members on both sides of that war and I have heard aa zillion stories if I have heard 1.

However, unlike Focalor, I am not here to tell anyone what to believe or what they believe is stupid. I have amassed a lot of information on this subject and there are numerous things that simply don't add up. I can share those things with you and if you have interest in researching it you are welcome to do so. If not, cool. I look at this as basically a useless subject that has high interest value. I'm not determined to pin myself to any causes or argue with people that disagree with me...or even promote those that do agree with me. It is what it is. I have no emotional attachments to the subject.

Regarding Focalor turning people against me. I wouldn't worry about that too much. He's too busy making sure everyone hates him and the more he turns every little thing I say into an issue, the more people are gonna get sick and tired of him. It would take someone cool and thoughtful like you (DeathMaster) to turn people against me. Someone that people have a reason to respect. Focalor will never be that guy. Focalor doesn't even have enough respect for himself to present his beliefs in a way that people are willing to consider them. He could say all the right things and he is doomed to say them in a way that nobody wants to hear. He also doesn't seem to be very good at calculating. He picks one of the only people here that has a fan club and a hate club and he never stops talking about me. You know the only thing in this world that might be worse than dealing with someone you can't stand...? Dealing with someone else that wont shut up about them. lol, Focalor... I almost feel sorry for you due to how terrible you are at this. Right now people are considering which one of us they hate more, I'm thinking it won't be long before my spotlight fades and he will spend every minute of his day arguing with and being hated by the grand majority of people that come here. Shit, keep it up, bro. You're doing me a favor. It's real hard to look crappier than you.

--BTW, the first girl I ever proposed to was Jewish. I loved her more than anything or anyone I have ever loved since. Her race meant nothing to me one way or another. It was never an issue, topic, concern... I don't see all these colors. All I see is good people, bad people and people trying to be one or the other.

[Focalor]

I really don't need to know your life story. Don't feel the need to defend your position from me anymore, because like I said, it's getting boring repeating the same things over and over. I got my opinion. You got yours. Fuck it.

ps. I meant what I said about the comment in the down rep. Don't say shit, just do it.