Probably the scariest thing...ever

[FrikaC]

If I remember correctly, Gravel is the only democratic candidate who has said Iraq was a mistake.

Have you ever heard of Barack Obama? He spoke out about the Iraq war from the beginning his 2002 speech is rather good. He is clearly anti-war.

If you want to quibble he never called it a 'mistake' exactly, I shall point you to statements from him on CNN's site from when he announced his candidacy where he called the Iraq War a "tragic mistake".

Yes he's a mainstream candidate and you get a lot of baggage with that, ie, more politicking, but he's far superior to Hillary Clinton and her anti-video game tirade.

Mike Gravel is interesting and has been interesting in the past. I've been following his exploits for years before he joined the Presidential race, coverage of him was rather frequent on bluemassgroup.org. He's great and all, but he probably has little chance of winning, sadly.

But anyway, I digress. Go about your Hitler electing, Africa ignoring, US bashing discussion.

[Baker]

Ah, I missed your reply somehow ...

That sounds massively subjective, "I don't think we can help, so we wont." Basically its giving up before trying.

Didn't we try to help in Somalia before some incident where 18 soldiers were killed and dragged in the streets?

I don't think thoroughly uneducated countries can be helped that much. The people won't wait in lines for food, gangsters steal it and/or take it from women and children.

I think this is really, really sad. What can you do? Many of those countries have nearly total illiteracy.

Then it isn't for the sake of policing the world, for spreading democracy, deposing dictators, it is just taking care of our business.

Aren't all governments basically "do-nothing" until a problem can't be ignored any longer?

They didn't exactly have any plans for Hurricane Katrina and really no one cared about the Middle East at all until 9/11.

We aren't interested in Africa currently on a financial level, so who gives a fuck if they slaughter people whole sale, on a personal level?

So in short, Africa is the region of the world where we simply can't be arsed? Nice.

What could you do short of colonizing those countries, which is evil? South Africa is the most modern nation in sub-Saharan Africa.

Do not presume that being democratically elected means that you are qualified, within America, both parties have refuted that pipe dream. Regarding the get power and keep power, that reminds me of incumbent senators.

Yeah, that's for sure. Today both parties are so heavily funded by corporations I wonder if corporations are new super-citizens with greater rights than people.

Or maybe things have always been this way. Dutch East India company, etc. etc.

Well, the Jews were internal and external, also his political opponents could be argued to be responsible for the poor management, and it was to his advantage to harm them because it gained public support. Jews were already unpopular in Germany and throughout Europe, aggression towards them was a focal point for their anger, the existing administration was labeled stagnation and other nation's legislating Germany's fate was labeled as the cause for the inadequacy of recent administrations, and an excuse to be fine with hostility in regards to the external world.

Substitute "Jews" for "Americans" and substitute "Germany" for the "Middle East" and the rest -- stagnation, inadequacy of administrations -- is a perfect description of the pre-9/11 Middle East.

Slight tangent, just pointing out the similarities. Dictators LOVE to distract their populace with a finger pointing to someone to blame.

The 9-11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Egypt, and Lebanon I believe, the majority of these being the first two. Saudi Arabia and UAE are good buddies of ours. Egypt, well, they do our dirty laundry, along with Uzbekistan, and Lebanon seems to be on a more generic relation. The majority of the hi-jackers who were willing to kill themselves to harm America came from nations that we are considered allies

Those countries weren't our friends, the cronies that run those countries were our friends. Which consequentially, why would countries ever become democratic if that means the dictators would lose their power and control over all the resources of those nations.

Perhaps a better example of your point about how we don't care about democracy except when it is in our interests.

[scar3crow]

I don't think thoroughly uneducated countries can be helped that much. The people won't wait in lines for food, gangsters steal it and/or take it from women and children.

I think this is really, really sad. What can you do? Many of those countries have nearly total illiteracy.

You live on their diet and then try to wait in line. However, literacy, education of any sort, hardly impacts a situation when gangsters, usually armed with automatic weapons, steal it from women and children. The child can be well read, but that won't make him impervious to bullets, and it his malnourished grip will not last any longer against the tug of a grown man. Somalia is just one country in Africa, and they're not identical situations. However it should be noted that in Mogadishu we were fighting Aidid's militia, those loyal to him. Why would they be loyal to him? Because he and his forces drove out a dictatorial regime, and he had the guns, which meant he had the food. We were in Mogadishu to capture him, a plan that evolved out of an international plan of delivering aid, which we then switched to nation building. Somalian sentiment had already turned against us when we acted on bad intel in a combat strike... and killed 50 clan elders who were meeting to discuss ways to peacefully resolve the situation. It is a big heap of fertilizer and a giant industrial fan. Not a clean situation.

Aren't all governments basically "do-nothing" until a problem can't be ignored any longer?

If so, then I say do not vote for any incumbent anywhere, that is piss poor terrible management and guidance, and it leads naturally to a boiling point scenario in basically any situation, where the slightest bit of incompetence can ruin it all.

What could you do short of colonizing those countries, which is evil? South Africa is the most modern nation in sub-Saharan Africa.

We seem to be fine with doing this elsewhere, in places that aren't nearly as bad...

Today both parties are so heavily funded by corporations I wonder if corporations are new super-citizens with greater rights than people.

Or maybe things have always been this way. Dutch East India company, etc. etc.

Corporations are definitely supercitizens, who have votes that supersede our own. They can exist simultaneously within and outside of the nation, don't have to contribute, and due to the perception of them as just companies, people do not apply standards of morality to their views of them (despite the fact that ultimately, their decisions are approved by a small group of people). They have definitely be around, as you gave a good example of, but it does feel like they have ramped up a lot in the last 70 years.

Those countries weren't our friends, the cronies that run those countries were our friends.

Technically, those cronies our friends with our cronies, to the extent of friends who profit off of each other.

Which consequentially, why would countries ever become democratic if that means the dictators would lose their power and control over all the resources of those nations.

Depends on how much power you truly have. The somewhat powerful keep it a dictatorship, but the truly powerful blur the line. Look at China, the worst thing to ever happen to their freedom movement is economic prosperity. They keep the intellectuals happy now, rather than killing them. They don't complain anymore because they are not the ones suffering. China is an interesting nation in that it is kind of a "free market communism" of sorts... Oh well, its countryside and people inhabiting it are just as bad off as West Virginia is here.

Russia now reminds me of America, though less subtle. It has fewer SuperCitizens, more just outright big brother. They have the government control of media, we have corporate control of media, which dictates who gets into government. CNN plays what they play, because it gets ratings and thus money so they can prosper. Fox News is the same for a different audience... ...same SuperCitizens feeding the cash cow, and telling people what candidates are viable to vote for, and why you should casually dismiss the rest.

[Baker]

We seem to be fine with doing this elsewhere, in places that aren't nearly as bad...

Wise man once said: any difficult problem has a built-in defense mechanism to prevent the problem from being solved.

Corporations are definitely supercitizens, who have votes that supersede our own. They can exist simultaneously within and outside of the nation, don't have to contribute

Companies any more are assistants of government. A government can pass a law saying "all employers must do X" and then they have the might of corporate America enforcing their decrees (for free).

Mandatory identification for transactions, insurance, etc. etc.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, just making the observation.

and due to the perception of them as just companies, people do not apply standards of morality to their views of them (despite the fact that ultimately, their decisions are approved by a small group of people). They have definitely be around, as you gave a good example of, but it does feel like they have ramped up a lot in the last 70 years.

I think employers are the new dukes and lords of the Middle Ages

Again ... just observation, I'm not saying this is good or bad.

Depends on how much power you truly have. The somewhat powerful keep it a dictatorship, but the truly powerful blur the line. Look at China, the worst thing to ever happen to their freedom movement is economic prosperity.

Nah, China is going to be fine. What China is going to realize is that America got into a position of dominance by enlightened and knowledgable citizens.

You can't have an information control society and be enlightened at the same time. In the future, there will be an ever-increasing demand for interaction outside the borders .. this is beyond government information control.

China has come a long way in a short time. They have more to go. It will be a bumpy road, but I love how they are already having to tackle corruption and fiefdoms.

Did you know they changed many courts from 1 judge to 3 judge panels to fight corruption/fiefdoms/injustice? They will continue to evolve.

What a fun country to watch emerge and grow.

They keep the intellectuals happy now, rather than killing them.

/me smiles

Oh well, its countryside and people inhabiting it are just as bad off as West Virginia is here.

If we can't fix West Virginia, how can we fix Africa? Healer, heal thyself!

Russia now reminds me of America, though less subtle. It has fewer SuperCitizens, more just outright big brother. They have the government control of media, we have corporate control of media, which dictates who gets into government. CNN plays what they play, because it gets ratings and thus money so they can prosper. Fox News is the same for a different audience... ...same SuperCitizens feeding the cash cow, and telling people what candidates are viable to vote for, and why you should casually dismiss the rest.

Russia has many very serious problems in their future. Including a birth rate of 1% -- in 50 years, the Russian population will sharply decline as a result.

This is also true of much of Europe, especially Italy. Europe will rapidly age within the coming years and they will need to absorb large numbers of immigrants.

In the United States, the birthrate among citizens is a steady 2%.

[scar3crow]

If the companies and a few members of congress agree, then yeah, they can kind of indirectly enforce degrees at least partially. Its sneaky...

It might interest you to know that China is wanting to sponsor the creation of many colleges of Confucian Ethics in American schools, including my own (I was told this by a professor of Shandong Normal), to change their perception by Americans. Less Mao, more Confucius, and they think college students is the best target population.

Regarding the heal thyself, the only thing that came to mind was maybe making fun of WoW.

Many places seem to have a birth rate problem... Oh well, give me a year and enough money for a ring and rent, my girlfriend has assured me that can be taken care of.

[Baker]

If the companies and a few members of congress agree, then yeah, they can kind of indirectly enforce degrees at least partially. Its sneaky...

You know, I have some really interesting thoughts on this subject.

It strikes me as really odd how many freedoms one can lose at certain employers and this is twice as compounded by how little time one -- on average -- stays with a single employer.

I think a REAL shame is that there needs to be more employee rights -- as in freedoms (not stuff that can abused, aka handouts).

In the 1990s, they actually had to pass a Family and Medical Leave act (or some such thing) to keep women from losing their jobs if they had to leave due to pregnancy or an illiness in the family.

It is a shame American unions are so diseased, because we really need some sort of advocate for employees rights that is a benign, healthy and progressive organization.

It might interest you to know that China is wanting to sponsor the creation of many colleges of Confucian Ethics in American schools, including my own (I was told this by a professor of Shandong Normal), to change their perception by Americans.

Eastern philosophy is a very beneficial thing. I read part of a great book that compared Eastern and Western religions and contrasted their philosophies. To me, the Eastern philosophy -- which is based on morality makes one healthy vs. Western philosophy where good behavior serves as punishment avoidance -- the Eastern philosophy is far more healthy.

I personally wonder whether if many of the great German philosophers of the 1800's were not heavily influenced by the East, because the similarities are very strong. Maybe I'll look into this.

Many places seem to have a birth rate problem... Oh well, give me a year and enough money for a ring and rent, my girlfriend has assured me that can be taken care of.

Hehe, it's the right thing to do.

No civilization that fails to reproduce can by definition be healthy.

I've read that serious space travel will not be possible without a human population of around 10 billion. Yeah, that's off-topic but I read that somewhere.