had to respond to this

[Shadowswift]

since the thread was closed, ill just make a new one

2. Anarchy is an idea. It's also impossible. Like flying monkeys. The strong will always dominate the weak (add some asterisks to that) and therefore the majority will always rule in some fashion because numbers matter and 9 times out of 10, the greater number wins.

dude, believe it not but i wrote a college thesis based on exactly that. you're my hero. thank god im not alone in that thought.

[Baker]

since the thread was closed, ill just make a new one

dude, believe it not but i wrote a college thesis based on exactly that. you're my hero. thank god im not alone in that thought.

Glad you liked that. If it seems negative, it both isn't and is.

There are a lot good things about that, and some bad. Either way, we don't get a choice, but that fact about the world isn't going to go away.

[Shadowswift]

its all about that law, "survival of the fittest." i think Darwin said it. but, its basically what keeps anarchy from being possible.

[Paradi$e]

The weak are still cared for in America. Every life is considered very precious here.

If you recall that incident with that woman in a coma for 20 years and she was on life support for all that time. Alot of time, effort and money was spent on her to be kept alive all that time.

This was a while ago in the news.

[Baker]

its all about that law, "survival of the fittest." i think Darwin said it. but, its basically what keeps anarchy from being possible.

That is true. But it's not a negative thing (usually).

The great German philosopher, Friedrich Nietzsche, had a number of fascinating things he derived from this and the effects and consequences of such. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche )

See, something that matters is numbers.

Most people don't support unjust things. This means that there is a natural bias towards good over evil.

As a result, evil is a short-term gain in general. Evil is essentially behavior where one places his/her own welfare far above any other consideration of others, usually to the detriment of others.

Which is why corruption is usually not rewarded in the long term.

Corruption leads to poverty and instability and an "opposing force", that usually ends up being greater in numbers.

One consequence of Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy is that it is the moral duty to "win", if you have a truly just cause. An example, after 9/11 the "The Constitution is not a suicide pact" mentally that the government quickly took, where they immediately detained a large number of foreign nationals.

[Shadowswift]

oh no, i agree. survival of the fittest is not bad at all. infact, if chaos were possible, it would be a bad thing. if government were to truely dissapear, the strong would take over and either assume leadership in an organized way, or just do as they see fit, no matter who it concerned. however, as mankind has evolved, they have placed their values higher up as to who is truely strong. the intelligent and the decisive are the stronger of the species. those would be the ones to assume command should disorder ensue. loyalty is also a powerful factor. those that recognize the strength of these intelectual leaders would gain loyalty for them and be willing to defend their "rule" should opposition step forward. thus, an army is born under our new leader(s). if their leadership is efficient, the populace will most likely adopt it as its new government. if not, then a rebellion will most likely ensue. if the leader turns out not as strong as the populace first thought, then they will probably fall to the rebellion and a new leader will step forward.

"its all just a little bit of history repeating."
humans can learn quite a bit from their past.

[Baker]

oh no, i agree. survival of the fittest is not bad at all. infact, if chaos were possible, it would be a bad thing. if government were to truely dissapear, the strong would take over and either assume leadership in an organized way, or just do as they see fit, no matter who it concerned. however, as mankind has evolved, they have placed their values higher up as to who is truely strong. the intelligent and the decisive are the stronger of the species. those would be the ones to assume command should disorder ensue. loyalty is also a powerful factor. those that recognize the strength of these intelectual leaders would gain loyalty for them and be willing to defend their "rule" should opposition step forward. thus, an army is born under our new leader(s). if their leadership is efficient, the populace will most likely adopt it as its new government. if not, then a rebellion will most likely ensue. if the leader turns out not as strong as the populace first thought, then they will probably fall to the rebellion and a new leader will step forward.

"its all just a little bit of history repeating."
humans can learn quite a bit from their past.

Yes, this is why dictatorships have to buy weapons and technology, but democracies can build them themselves.

[Shadowswift]

the only real X factor to my thesis is that mankind doesnt always make the smartest decisions, even when their own well-being is at stake. the loyalists i mentioned could offer their loyalty to someone unfit for leadership. then majority rule kicks in and the populace would find itself in big trouble, an idiot in charge and too many guards to rebel against. as we look back at history as to how many times this has actually happened...Darwin's law doesnt look too good.

[Baker]

the only real X factor to my thesis is that mankind doesnt always make the smartest decisions, even when their own well-being is at stake. the loyalists i mentioned could offer their loyalty to someone unfit for leadership. then majority rule kicks in and the populace would find itself in big trouble, an idiot in charge and too many guards to rebel against. as we look back at history as to how many times this has actually happened...Darwin's law doesnt look too good.

This is why it is important for different countries to pursue their own ideas and for different states to do this as well.

This prevents a wrong way of doing things from driving us off a cliff.

For example:

Ford and GM are 2 giant and severely broken companies, to be quite honest. The productivity is terrible due to the union mentality. In the USA, these companies could be monopolies and could prevent anyone else from entering the market.

But Toyota is not in the USA, they have a better philosophy of product quality controls and a different work ethic and make a far superior product.

Diversity is part of the evolution formula. So is eating the competition if they do something stupid or get soft.

then majority rule kicks in and the populace would find itself in big trouble, an idiot in charge and too many guards to rebel against

Fortunately, at least in this country leaving is an option.

The people that were really screwed were the ones behind the Berlin Wall and in the Soviet Union that couldn't leave.

But yes, this is a major problem and it sucks. My current complaint would be if something like HillaryCare were imposed on us all. Apparently, doctors/med students feel the same way. To become a doctor is huge investment of time and $$$, they expect to make a lot of money for making such a sacrifice. They don't expect to make the same $$$ as everyone else who didn't make that investment of 10 years of education.

/That's just 1 example, maybe a bad one ... who knows. So many other ones, of course.

[omix2]

This is why it is important for different countries to pursue their own ideas and for different states to do this as well.

This prevents a wrong way of doing things from driving us off a cliff.

For example:

Ford and GM are 2 giant and severely broken companies, to be quite honest. The productivity is terrible due to the union mentality. In the USA, these companies could be monopolies and could prevent anyone else from entering the market.

But Toyota is not in the USA, they have a better philosophy of product quality controls and a different work ethic and make a far superior product.

Diversity is part of the evolution formula. So is eating the competition if they do something stupid or get soft.



Fortunately, at least in this country leaving is an option.

The people that were really screwed were the ones behind the Berlin Wall and in the Soviet Union that couldn't leave.

But yes, this is a major problem and it sucks. My current complaint would be if something like HillaryCare were imposed on us all. Apparently, doctors/med students feel the same way. To become a doctor is huge investment of time and $$$, they expect to make a lot of money for making such a sacrifice. They don't expect to make the same $$$ as everyone else who didn't make that investment of 10 years of education.

/That's just 1 example, maybe a bad one ... who knows. So many other ones, of course.

Not exactly accurate. Doctors would not be getting paid any less, if anything they would be paid more. Those that want to work in lower class / government controlled facilities might be on government pay, but everyone knows there are certain advantages to working for the government.

Furthermore any of those that are getting into it for the money are exactly what is wrong with this system. They should be fine making 6 figures period. The profession I am going into gets 340k at start. I wouldn't complain as long as I were making 6 figures. Even healthcare is taking a hit from globalization, some radiology is now outsourced. Those radiologists in india are not culpable for malpractice suits, which makes the whole act of outsourcing radiology very despicable on the part of the hospitals.

I have very little respect for my future peers in this field. Most doctors wouldn't even operate on my grandpa because he has a risk of dying on the table. The only other alternative is for him to die. So basically they'd rather let him die than attempt to save him. And the chance for someone with mid to late stage stomach cancer survival is something like 30-40%. Those are great numbers when compared to DEATH IN 6 FUCKING MONTHS if you ask me.

Oh yeah, think this country's great? Another one of my grandparents got stomach cancer and had surgery in russia and survived and live a great life. Here they won't even attempt it. Pathetic. The state of healthcare here is like 30th place worldwide, it's abysmal and people still think its great.

"HillaryCare" or whatever you call it... It's already been proven that socialized medicine works much better than our system. Hello!? It's broken, while the top 30 other countries on the list all have socialized medicine. Common sense. It is all rhetoric that healthcare automatically suffers when the government takes it over. It depends on how its run and anyone in canada would tell you they would never ever live in the american system.

[Baker]

Not exactly accurate. Doctors would not be getting paid any less, if anything they would be paid more.

With government control, the next thing becomes government regulation.

Nationalized health care would begin this process.

Sort of like how mandatory auto insurance led to laws requiring people to wear motorcycle helmets and requiring seatbelts. [I don't care, I think they should, but anyways ...]

I'm not saying this is bad, I'm saying this is what happens when individual choice is replaced with government compulsion.

The erosion begins. The rules. Reimbursement caps. Managed health care.

Furthermore any of those that are getting into it for the money are exactly what is wrong with this system.

My point was that someone who goes to school for 4 years, then 3-4 more and then has to be an intern for a while should be paid more.

Doing anything for the money is wrong, you have to have your heart in it.

Those radiologists in india are not culpable for malpractice suits, which makes the whole act of outsourcing radiology very despicable on the part of the hospitals.

There is an example of what DeathKnight and I were talking about.

If the USA has the malpractice stuff messed up (yes), then one way to avoid that overhead is outsourcing. It lowers costs (and probably quality too.)

Oh yeah, think this country's great? Another one of my grandparents got stomach cancer and had surgery in russia and survived and live a great life. Here they won't even attempt it. Pathetic. The state of healthcare here is like 30th place worldwide, it's abysmal and people still think its great.

"HillaryCare" or whatever you call it... It's already been proven that socialized medicine works much better than our system. Hello!? It's broken ...

Yeah, but you are missing something.

There are certain things Europe can do VERY well that we cannot.

Europe is several small independent countries. There is an attachment to the people and they care more about small issues as a result.

Our government is a bloated bureaucracy isolated from the people and accountable to no one because the country is so large.

You are assuming that if WE nationalize healthcare, that it would be similar to nationalized healthcare in Europe.

I don't think that is true for a second.

In our country, the government employees are VERY detached from their function and from people. The politicians are unaccountable (re-election rate 90%++) and government waste is enormous.

While this is true in every country to SOME extent, the USA due to the geographic size and lack of representation is special.

Within 15 years, they would have it very screwed up.

The Department of Homeland Security for example has a budget I think of $50 billion per year. What do they do? 9/11 is long over.

At least this is what I think.

[omix2]

With government control, the next thing becomes government regulation.

Nationalized health care would begin this process.

Sort of like how mandatory auto insurance led to laws requiring people to wear motorcycle helmets and requiring seatbelts. [I don't care, I think they should, but anyways ...]

I'm not saying this is bad, I'm saying this is what happens when individual choice is replaced with government compulsion.

The erosion begins. The rules. Reimbursement caps. Managed health care.



My point was that someone who goes to school for 4 years, then 3-4 more and then has to be an intern for a while should be paid more.

Doing anything for the money is wrong, you have to have your heart in it.



There is an example of what DeathKnight and I were talking about.

If the USA has the malpractice stuff messed up (yes), then one way to avoid that overhead is outsourcing. It lowers costs (and probably quality too.)



Yeah, but you are missing something.

There are certain things Europe can do VERY well that we cannot.

Europe is several small independent countries. There is an attachment to the people and they care more about small issues as a result.

Our government is a bloated bureaucracy isolated from the people and accountable to no one because the country is so large.

You are assuming that if WE nationalize healthcare, that it would be similar to nationalized healthcare in Europe.

I don't think that is true for a second.

In our country, the government employees are VERY detached from their function and from people. The politicians are unaccountable (re-election rate 90%++) and government waste is enormous.

While this is true in every country to SOME extent, the USA due to the geographic size and lack of representation is special.

Within 15 years, they would have it very screwed up.

The Department of Homeland Security for example has a budget I think of $50 billion per year. What do they do? 9/11 is long over.

At least this is what I think.

Very true. Roman empire scenario. I'm eventually planning out moving out of here and I wish it were now during this shit recession.

[Shadowswift]

more and more it appears we are becoming less of a nation and more of an empire. whether that will end up being good or bad is unknown. sometimes a bad idea can turn out the best results. sometimes a good idea can lead to millions of deaths...religion, for example.

[Baker]

more and more it appears we are becoming less of a nation and more of an empire.

The sentiment is true, but I have issue with the use of the word "empire". The reason is I do is that a poor choice of words taints the way things are thought about.

What is really happening is a large philosophical battle of a global scope is going on. Although the visible face is the USA, it isn't just us.

And likewise, some of the things the USA has done were wrong. Not in intent, but in effect. But wrong nevertheless.

So by linking this change to the USA, it leads to judging the USA on actions/results. This is wrong because it doesn't see the larger picture.

Once you reveal what is actually going on, you can question it and see what will and won't happen.

One example: Muslims aren't wrong about everything.

As their influence in the world grows, they will change and be more like us. But also, "we" will become more like them.

You can already see this in politics in the USA. Notice a lot more references to religion by candidates of both parties?

The concept of mocking others religious beliefs is declining.

whether that will end up being good or bad is unknown. sometimes a bad idea can turn out the best results. sometimes a good idea can lead to millions of deaths...religion, for example.

More philosophy:

Only bad behavior results in substantial change in the world. Because the only time we evolve is when we are combatting bad behavior.

Without bad behavior, the world stagnates.

You see this in the moral slide and loss of focus that always occurs during times of peace.

And this moral slide (mental laziness, really) always results in war. WWII is an example is this pattern. 9/11 was a result of this pattern.

WWII was preceded by some terribly inept leaders in Europe making very bad decisions.

And this is a theme of so many movies.

If you have it easy, you get content. If you get content, you get lazy. If you get lazy, you stop thinking and develop a moral equivalence attitude like "who cares?" or "what does this matter to me?".

This happens to countries, this happens to people and this happens to corporations.

Evolution does not favor that behavior because evolution favors constant improvement and the will to better oneself.

[omix2]

The sentiment is true, but I have issue with the use of the word "empire". The reason is I do is that a poor choice of words taints the way things are thought about.

What is really happening is a large philosophical battle of a global scope is going on. Although the visible face is the USA, it isn't just us.

And likewise, some of the things the USA has done were wrong. Not in intent, but in effect. But wrong nevertheless.

So by linking this change to the USA, it leads to judging the USA on actions/results. This is wrong because it doesn't see the larger picture.

Once you reveal what is actually going on, you can question it and see what will and won't happen.

One example: Muslims aren't wrong about everything.

As their influence in the world grows, they will change and be more like us. But also, "we" will become more like them.

You can already see this in politics in the USA. Notice a lot more references to religion by candidates of both parties?

The concept of mocking others religious beliefs is declining.



More philosophy:

Only bad behavior results in substantial change in the world. Because the only time we evolve is when we are combatting bad behavior.

Without bad behavior, the world stagnates.

You see this in the moral slide and loss of focus that always occurs during times of peace.

And this moral slide (mental laziness, really) always results in war. WWII is an example is this pattern. 9/11 was a result of this pattern.

WWII was preceded by some terribly inept leaders in Europe making very bad decisions.

And this is a theme of so many movies.

If you have it easy, you get content. If you get content, you get lazy. If you get lazy, you stop thinking and develop a moral equivalence attitude like "who cares?" or "what does this matter to me?".

This happens to countries, this happens to people and this happens to corporations.

Evolution does not favor that behavior because evolution favors constant improvement and the will to better oneself.

Since the end of WWII the united states has approached foreign affairs with a policy of outright imperialism. We enslave 3rd world countries and force people into poverty. The USA assassinates democratically elected leaders with the CIA (Chile). The USA is the cause of fundamental islam, and the rest of the world has to suffer for it. Does anyone even remember the Iran-Iraq war? This country is evil, even in intentions. It's hard to imagine the other side being anything but right. This country masquerades as some kind of moral force in the world when in reality it has perpetrated some very heinous acts, and continues to wage war and destabilize the middle east and with it the rest of the world.

The truth is muslims would've never bothered us if had simply lived and let live. There are many reasons for what they do. We radicalized osama himself. Now he's supposedly the most evil man in the world. I sympathize with the terrorists, because they are the underdogs fighting an evil imperialist giant. This country will fall.