what the fuck is this shit?

[Baker]

Well, yes, for this or that reason, communism can't work out at the moment.

The idea of communism was one man's idea of how to solve the problems he saw in his time. Like most ideas, his idea was a step in the right direction and made insightful observations but the total idea as envisioned probably doesn't work.

Centralization = one brain = one decision process. This is bad. And slow. And cumbersome. And using natural evolutionary processes and comparing them to human social evolution, centralization is utterly doomed to failure because "one way" cannot satisfy a diversity of "needs".

But in my opinion, much of the rest of Karl Marx's concept of communism was rather good. Or at least the ideas behind it.

The concept of the "public good" -- i.e. resources available to the public -- while maybe not his idea originally, would be like how the internet and information is available to almost everyone, or public libraries or public schools. Or the availability of water or electric or of the post office.

This works well for basic services.

But the concept can break higher up the chain if an attempt is made to universally apply it.

Free market is ingrained in human culture

The free market is a natural state ingrained into the universe. You can see it in evolution. Like Darwin's birds, where one species "radiated" to become several to maximize use of natural resources (eat different insects, foliage, etc.)



Since the free market is a natural state, like 2 + 2 = 4, attempts to "override" the free market are generally doomed to failure except to the extent you can artificially increase the costs of activities to deter them ("sin taxes", for instance).

In theory, free market is absolutely perfect. In practice, free market encounters "market failure" because true free market thrives in conditions with infinite suppliers, consumers and perfect information -- which we can never have.

Communism, really, was an idea to solve the disproportionate power that monopolies [big industry] have. In theory!

In practice, "communism" has substituted one disproportionate power (big industry) with a different disproportionate power (dictatorship).

Which solves nothing.

And these communist governments like the USSR and China, might never have actually been "communist" by definition, more of a warped and deformed version of the idea.

[dfsp_spirit]

On the original question of this thread (why the Empire State building was lit in the colors of China):

That's called diplomacy. Because this is a capitalist world the US have to trade with China to make money. Even if parts of its population are still stuck in the Cold War and consider the Chinese a communist threat - though they are nothing more than State-capitalist.

[golden_boy]

Well, yes, for this or that reason, communism can't work out at the moment.

The best you can do is apply some of its fundamental theories to an otherwise capitalist system, so you end up with some sort of hybrid. What was called in Germany "Soziale Marktwirtschaft", social free-market economy. Or free market with carefully fine tuned social components.

Free market is ingrained in human culture, you can't really tell someone he can't give a cow and get 5 sheep in return because something else is better. You can't do away with free market. However, social behaviour is ingrained in humans, too. The problem occurs when the guy gives a cow, but gets nothing in return. The balance is gone. You can probably take countermeasures to extreme poverty, put up some boundaries for the market, provide proper health care, free quality education, and stuff like that. You can probably also make an effort to not allow your elite to start wars for resources. Stuff like that. Checks and balances.

It's not an either-or situation. You can have the cake and eat it, too. So I believe. In spite of corruption (which'll never go away).

[Baker]

the only reason communism does not work in practice, is that the guy holding the "biggest gun" will always get greedy and kill anyone who claims some of the resources he is guarding with that "big gun" -> scale this up and you have the reason why the world is such a mess, for this principle also applies to any other system you can think of..

Collectivist anything is doomed to failure because it inhibits individual freedom to "innovate" or try a different "way of life" (think of rigid 1950s communities where dancing was outlawed, women's rights or arranged marriages).

If "change" is the constant of the world, collectivism requires everyone to agree -- a colossal drag on experimentation and rate of change, and inherently inferior.

Even separating out, like you said, the human tendency of "gatekeepers" to be corrupt or corrupted.

[=peg=]

the only reason communism does not work in practice, is that the guy holding the "biggest gun" will always get greedy and kill anyone who claims some of the resources he is guarding with that "big gun" -> scale this up and you have the reason why the world is such a mess, for this principle also applies to any other system you can think of..

[Baker]

You're arguing with my Government teacher, this and this when you say that.

Your government teacher is arguing with Karl Marx!

Communism is supposed to mean "common ownership", an idea in oppositiion to his conception of capitalism at the time. Capitalism, in his conception, is where resources are controlled by the wealthy for their benefit and his vision was the idea of resources shared by everyone.

If you want to get picky, what the Soviet Union and China did as government types was never true Communism, nor anything remotely close.

Needless to say, goldenboy is quite correct.

[foq]

In Communism, the workers own the means of production. Not the government, and not some sort of upper class or elite.

You're arguing with my Government teacher, this and this when you say that.

[golden_boy]

Communism means that the govt owns the means of production.

In Communism, the workers own the means of production. Not the government, and not some sort of upper class or elite.

Hence, China probably isn't communist. I don't think it's free market, though, either. I doubt Mr. Chinese Mining Worker can buy any stuff from a US internet shop he wants. He can be glad if he isn't accidentally killed while he slaves away to increase some bigwig party member's profit / power.

Let's not start about Mr. Tibetan Worker.

If they had improved since the Tianmen Massacre, they'd not prohibit victims' mothers and civil rights activists from talking about it.

[eieio]

btw - chrismas trees and ornaments have pagan roots. so ya, any symbol on a xmas tree, even an athiest one, makes complete sense.

[Fragger]

[...]an Atheist ornament on the top of a Christmas tree?

We don't use ornaments.
I think those lights are just a means to suck up to them so we can continue to have all those cheap and worthless goodies and not a way to celebrate communism. "Go China!... Go get me a few boxes of those flimsy airsoft guns that break faster than a drunk virgin in a frat house!!"

[Authentic]

They're still a communist nation, and we're celebrating 60 years since the communist party gained control of China. Why are we celebrating Communism here in (supposedly) free-market America? Why do we light up one of the greatest symbols of our power in tribute to Communism, much like an Atheist ornament on the top of a Christmas tree?

Let me guess, You've never been laid?

[oldendirt]

Nerd shit. stfu.

...says the guy with a cat avatar, and an xfire sig.. with a cat in it

LAWLS!

See this is why I picked the wrong livelihood... being a professional nerd is not as glamorous as it used to be.

No really.

[Fuzznut]

My cat avatars own you.



This guy knows what I was doing....






Hoax to Coast is pretty funny to listen to at night. I use to listen to it alot when I was making dope runs and/or going to see my ex in Birmingham on the return trip. It's usually good for a laugh but I have heard some talk show hosts during the day make fun of that crisis garden shit. I'm all for self-sufficiency but this seems like some black helicopters shit.

Yeah I listen to Coast to Coast a bit. While a lot of these people are reallly hard for me to swallow, I give it props because its pretty much an open forum, even if you got 'crisis garden' companies making money off of paranoia.

While we may laugh at the crisis garden crap, we might be foolish to completely write off everything and at least consider some of it and look around us at what may be happening.

Is something going on? I dunno, but something may be happening.

[Fuzznut]

Hmmm ..

I actually said "North Korea" is where something is made. They don't have the infrastructure to even feed themselves. My bad. Proofreading -1. We ought to withdraw from South Korea, that country has plenty of $$$ and more than enough to defend themselves. Ok, end tangent.

re: Crisis gardens

This country isn't going to collapse, it'll just go into perma-decay for about 10 years.

If it does collapse [won't happen], having a garden will scarcely suffice and I'd be more worried about clean drinking water and anti-biotics than food.

I hope I'm wrong when I think that with currency deflation that gas might go back to $4/gallon by next year (or even $5). That sure sucked last year.

Anyway, back on the subject of collapse ... a collapse can't happen for several reasons.

FIRST, we are not short on labor or manpower nor infrastructure. For there to be chaos, you have to have a situation where there no labor or safety or communications and an economic downturn can't cause those [and this isn't the 1930s where 75% of the country was rural].

SECOND, in a non-dysfunctional economy, if you have a lot of labor and manpower, you switch from buying abroad and switch to buying at home ... this creates JOBS and tax revenue. Which is exactly what we can't do ... because of NAFTA. Give the politicians 3 years and they'll finally figure this out.

The continuing downturn won't be "bad", it'll just be very uncomfortable like a New Year's day hangover for a few years while slowly but surely politicians will finally figure out what is wrong and then fix it.

It'll eventually get fixed because politicians will ultimately want to have money to spend and will make decisions they could have made 5 years ago, but didn't have the nerve to do.

I'm halfway through reading 'The Creature from Jekyll Island, a second look at the Federal Reserve', ever read this book Baker? If not I recommend it, at least for consideration.

[Baker]

Hmmm ..

I actually said "North Korea" is where something is made. They don't have the infrastructure to even feed themselves. My bad. Proofreading -1. We ought to withdraw from South Korea, that country has plenty of $$$ and more than enough to defend themselves. Ok, end tangent.

re: Crisis gardens

This country isn't going to collapse, it'll just go into perma-decay for about 10 years.

If it does collapse [won't happen], having a garden will scarcely suffice and I'd be more worried about clean drinking water and anti-biotics than food.

I hope I'm wrong when I think that with currency deflation that gas might go back to $4/gallon by next year (or even $5). That sure sucked last year.

Anyway, back on the subject of collapse ... a collapse can't happen for several reasons.

FIRST, we are not short on labor or manpower nor infrastructure. For there to be chaos, you have to have a situation where there no labor or safety or communications and an economic downturn can't cause those [and this isn't the 1930s where 75% of the country was rural].

SECOND, in a non-dysfunctional economy, if you have a lot of labor and manpower, you switch from buying abroad and switch to buying at home ... this creates JOBS and tax revenue. Which is exactly what we can't do ... because of NAFTA. Give the politicians 3 years and they'll finally figure this out.

The continuing downturn won't be "bad", it'll just be very uncomfortable like a New Year's day hangover for a few years while slowly but surely politicians will finally figure out what is wrong and then fix it.

It'll eventually get fixed because politicians will ultimately want to have money to spend and will make decisions they could have made 5 years ago, but didn't have the nerve to do.