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  • #16
    remember, when the time comes, DO NOT LEAVE EARTH. Your soul is at stake.

    Now get on speaknow! NOW!
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    • #17
      My main concern is that capitalism is working too well, strengthening the power of the masses, weakening the freedom of individuals. Within two centuries, freedom has left the wild nature to reborn in the wild towns, but is fading everywhere else. Conformism, social control, group thinking, those are the real troubles of a globalized world.
      engine: quore.free.fr

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      • #18
        Originally posted by lxndr View Post
        My main concern is that capitalism is working too well, strengthening the power of the masses, weakening the freedom of individuals. Within two centuries, freedom has left the wild nature to reborn in the wild towns, but is fading everywhere else. Conformism, social control, group thinking, those are the real troubles of a globalized world.
        I'm about to say something terrible. At least from my own past perspectives.

        I used to be a 100% freedom nut. And I was wrong. Now, this doesn't mean freedom isn't a paramount virtue. It means something else.

        There are 30% of the population in Western countries that actually don't deserve true freedom. And they should be impressed into social controls, group thinking and such. Because it is better for them than what they would do if they tried to form their own ideas or do things their own way.

        There IS a way out of those established social controls, but you have to earn your freedom by seeing between the lines. And this is the right way to do it. So unlimited freedom is wrong, but empowering people to "earn" their freedom is right via a bit of common sense and education.

        Case in point, there are a lot of self-destructive people out there ... ones that don't even get how their behavior is self-destructive. And there are criminals. And people so shortsighted that they don't know how they are their own worst enemy. Or they make incredibly stupid interpersonal decisions. Or maybe they are just dumb, and believe everything they want to believe ... like conspiracy nuts.

        These people should be restricted via the social constraints because they are a drag on others and cannot be fully trusted to make the right decisions for themselves.

        An example: there is this bud of mine who I had a few beers with the other night. He told me about his ideas to get into a concession business for events ... this guy ... I hate to say ... is on the fast track to rock bottom. His idea was very "dreamy" and ill-advised and he's only worked maybe 12 days in 2 years. But at some point, the social controls (i.e. running out of money) are going to cause him to take a more active and more realistic approach to life.
        Last edited by Baker; 03-24-2011, 11:46 AM.
        Quakeone.com - Being exactly one-half good and one-half evil has advantages. When a portal opens to the antimatter universe, my opposite is just me with a goatee.

        So while you guys all have to fight your anti-matter counterparts, me and my evil twin will be drinking a beer laughing at you guys ...

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Baker View Post
          I'm about to say something terrible. At least from my own past perspectives.

          I used to be a 100% freedom nut. And I was wrong. Now, this doesn't mean freedom isn't a paramount virtue. It means something else.

          There are 30% of the population in Western countries that actually don't deserve true freedom. And they should be impressed into social controls, group thinking and such. Because it is better for them than what they would do if they tried to form their own ideas or do things their own way.

          There IS a way out of those established social controls, but you have to earn your freedom by seeing between the lines. And this is the right way to do it. So unlimited freedom is wrong, but empowering people to "earn" their freedom is right via a bit of common sense and education.

          Case in point, there are a lot of self-destructive people out there ... ones that don't even get how their behavior is self-destructive. And there are criminals. And people so shortsighted that they don't know how they are their own worst enemy. Or they make incredibly stupid interpersonal decisions. Or maybe they are just dumb, and believe everything they want to believe ... like conspiracy nuts.
          This is exactly my concern, to think for someone else, to believe there's simple answers, and to consider people as nuts if they don't comply with the mainstream opinion. This is the root of social norms that are threatening individuals, all individuals.

          Everyone can make mistakes, being self-destructive or conspiracy believer, and it's ok as long as they are not involving anyone else. But when society try prevent someone to experience mistakes, it overpasses its functions and prevents people to live their life. This is why socialist countries are all social nightmares. Everything different is excluded, individuals are excluded.

          I might think someone is headed to what I think is the wrong direction, I may tell him/her if I want to help that person, but never I will except someone to behave as I want (as long as he/she's the only one involved.)

          These people should be restricted via the social constraints because they are a drag on others and cannot be fully trusted to make the right decisions for themselves.

          An example: there is this bud of mine who I had a few beers with the other night. He told me about his ideas to get into a concession business for events ... this guy ... I hate to say ... is on the fast track to rock bottom. His idea was very "dreamy" and ill-advised and he's only worked maybe 12 days in 2 years. But at some point, the social controls (i.e. running out of money) are going to cause him to take a more active and more realistic approach to life.
          Where I live, there's millions of anticapitalists dreamers, mainly in the public services and unemployed persons. It is possible because the french society took the path to prevent people from experiencing economic constraints. But economic constraints remains, on real workers.
          engine: quore.free.fr

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          • #20
            You are right about most of that.

            Just keep in mind you have the European perspective and I have the American one.

            I know this is sort of obvious to point out, but we have a lot more freedom over here than in Europe. Just one major factor is population density.

            Our social constraints are slightly detached.

            And I see the question through that lens.

            When you mention socialism shielding from economic realities and that danger, it resonates because I see most forms of "shielding" (except in the most basic form) as a bit dangerous.

            [I think of the bureaucrat who doesn't understand business, the wealthy guy who doesn't get the average joe, the pointy headed intellectual that doesn't get actual application of ideas, etc. ... and the reverse of those too!]

            I guess when I am looking at freedom constraints ... I am thinking of the people that will *really* screw up and have already demonstrated that they are going to do it again and again. I know far too many dead-end cases of people who seem magically inclined to irresponsibility and ... well ... actually crime --- not major crime, but repetitive stuff like theft or other endless strings of petty and dumb behavior.

            But like you said ... I mean look at the protests in Greece or in France (every time they try to change something) ... I know what you mean about socialism.

            I may see capitalism different than you being an American. In Europe, due to the high population density and just simply limit land mass ... your governments are probably more highly involved and intertwined with corporations. Don't get me wrong, corporations try to get entangled with government over here.

            In the USA you can always move or change jobs or "do your own thing" if you really wanted to (I'm not saying you can't move in France, but I have a feeling it isn't nearly so casual to do as in the US and obviously the USA being a large country with just 1 language, you have countless places you could move to and they'll still speak your language everywhere). My guess is employee protection laws in most European countries may make the employer/employee relationship effectively harder to break (the downside of more "rights") and with less potential employers, really.

            (My possibly wrong point of view as an American not living in France, but I think my perceptions of the differences between Europe and the USA are probably correct.)
            Last edited by Baker; 03-24-2011, 01:37 PM.
            Quakeone.com - Being exactly one-half good and one-half evil has advantages. When a portal opens to the antimatter universe, my opposite is just me with a goatee.

            So while you guys all have to fight your anti-matter counterparts, me and my evil twin will be drinking a beer laughing at you guys ...

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            • #21
              It seems like making sense just isnt at the top of alot of peoples list of priorities...
              People just like the sound of their own voice too much, it doesnt really matter to them what theyre saying.
              The term "everyone is entitled to their own opinion" registers, but is SOOOO vague...


              Some ppl have AWESOME opinions and are Fing revolutionaries...
              SURGEON GENERAL WARNING:
              THE IMITATION OF ANY OR ALL MANEUVERS EXECUTED BY A BB2 H23A1 4WS PRELUDE IS HAZARDOUS TO YOUR CAR'S HEALTH. DRIVING A PRELUDE MAY CAUSE LOSS OF INTEREST IN OTHER CARS, WOMEN AND SPEED LIMITS. OTHER SYMPTOMS INCLUDE SLEEPLESS NIGHTS, COLD SWEATS AND OTHER SYMPTOMS RELATED TO ADDICTION. IF THE SYMPTOMS PERSIST,DRIVE!
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              • #22
                i like how itsheaded but i dont like genetic t3esting or there mite be clones fighting wars and stuff

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Baker View Post
                  (My possibly wrong point of view as an American not living in France, but I think my perceptions of the differences between Europe and the USA are probably correct.)
                  Your perception is correct, you've got an excellent sight. France is an extreme case in Europe, most other countries have turned the page of socialism, at least in its marxist form.
                  engine: quore.free.fr

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lxndr View Post
                    Your perception is correct, you've got an excellent sight. France is an extreme case in Europe, most other countries have turned the page of socialism, at least in its marxist form.
                    You know ... in my heart and mind I actually believe in a hybrid socialism-communism-capitalism model. It just never gets done right with the correct priorities and ends up being corrupted by selfish interests -- either power mongers or the lazy "suck on the government teat" types.

                    Thanks by the way, for your compliment saying I have an accurate perception. I like to think that I am an American that "gets it" and always try to be foreward sighted, but I see so many failed examples of how not to do things that if I were not an optimist it would make me cry.

                    But I am an optimistic and I believe there is no other way to be. I do see a difference between right and wrong.

                    First --- there is a value to being correct. You get to understand. And this means you know the future and resistance is ... well ... "futile".
                    Second -- we will prevail. "We" being the people who get it. Not "getting it" does not put you in this club.

                    And third ... winners write the history books -- so fuckall to people whose stupid opinions are not justified by reality. They don't get a say when everything plays out, so who gives a flying monkey about what they think ... no one will remember what they think and if anyone does, it will be in the history books as the "loser's idea of the times" regardless of how politely that section is written.
                    Quakeone.com - Being exactly one-half good and one-half evil has advantages. When a portal opens to the antimatter universe, my opposite is just me with a goatee.

                    So while you guys all have to fight your anti-matter counterparts, me and my evil twin will be drinking a beer laughing at you guys ...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Baker View Post
                      winners write the history books -- so fuckall to people whose stupid opinions are not justified by reality. They don't get a say when everything plays out, so who gives a flying monkey about what they think ... no one will remember what they think and if anyone does, it will be in the history books as the "loser's idea of the times" regardless of how politely that section is written.
                      This is true... I just hope that when the monkeys do start to panic, they will listen to reason. Just because there seem to be a whole lot of them.

                      ___________________________________
                      hopefully its just the trolls, but the internet seems really idiot dominant, by the way alot comment and such, this forum is pretty idiot scarce, but for example cnndotcom is fuckin obv.. its started to take a better turn lately i hope people are in the midst of realizing that logic prevails.
                      Last edited by StatiC; 03-25-2011, 12:27 AM.
                      SURGEON GENERAL WARNING:
                      THE IMITATION OF ANY OR ALL MANEUVERS EXECUTED BY A BB2 H23A1 4WS PRELUDE IS HAZARDOUS TO YOUR CAR'S HEALTH. DRIVING A PRELUDE MAY CAUSE LOSS OF INTEREST IN OTHER CARS, WOMEN AND SPEED LIMITS. OTHER SYMPTOMS INCLUDE SLEEPLESS NIGHTS, COLD SWEATS AND OTHER SYMPTOMS RELATED TO ADDICTION. IF THE SYMPTOMS PERSIST,DRIVE!
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                      • #26
                        @Baker & StatiC
                        I agree...Sad but true guys.

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                        • #27
                          It's a doubled edged sword

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