Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

getting into level design (again)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • getting into level design (again)

    As I wrote in another post I am getting into Quake 1 again after a hiatus of ~7 years. I would also very much like to create my own levels.

    I have a little bit of previous experience, I did some very simple levels a couple of years back, I forgot what tools I used back then.

    My question is, what is the best way to create own levels in 2012? And, what would be some places where I can get into this again and learn more, especially regarding that we have 2012?

    I stress 2012 because some of the old tools I at least remember the name from, seem to be completely outdated, or have not been developed on for a decade or so. F.e. I tried Quoole and this was a trainwreck, especially under Windows 7. I couldn't even install it correctly.

    What is currently the best tool for Quake 1 level design? Would love to hear your recommendations and thoughts. And are there tutorials or sites you can recommend?

    If Linux is the way to go, so be it, but I would like to develop under Windows 7 if at all possible.

    My goals are at first: simple, stand-alone levels using only monsters and textures from Quake 1.

    The levels will be intended for single player, I don't want to make deathmatch maps.

    I also have a mid- to long-term goal, I want to make a connected series of levels with custom textures and maybe even one or two custom monsters. I don't know how realistic this is but this is what I am aiming at in the long run.

    ==
    My specs: I play on a Vaio laptop with GeForce 9300 M GS, Core2 Duo @ 2.4 GHz, Windows 7
    Last edited by Mike_Tyson; 06-22-2012, 01:06 PM. Reason: typos
    The more they [computers] know, the slower they get — as opposed to the human mind, which has the opposite property. David W. Hillis

  • #2
    GTKRadint or NetRadiant (if you want portability) for map making
    hmap2.exe is a good compiler
    neoTextureEdit is a decent procedural texture editor

    and I already packaged and set up all of this here

    there is only one thing for you to set up. When you open NetRadiant double click the wad listing that is not gfx.wad in the texture browser. This will load all the textures. Start making your map and at some point before you compile it - select one of your brushes and click view/entity inspector. Next to "wad" type the name of the wad you loaded.

    For instance if the wad was: C:\Quake\ID1\id1.wad - then just type "id1.wad" next to "wad" in the entity inspector. If you do not see "wad" as an option then you must have selected an entity instead of a brush. You must select a virgin brush. No func_wall or func_door or func anything else for that matter.

    Sorry so sloppy, I'm in a hella rush and I just wanted to pound out this answer for you before I go.

    peace,
    Michael

    oh P.S. if you want to use more texture wads just throw them in the ID1 folder and next to wad in the entity inspector write all your wad separated with a semi-colon, like this : id.wad;apocrypha.wad;bloodtiles.wad etc. This is only gonna work if you use hmap2.exe to compile (which is what my package is set up with). Also if you use some of the advanced compile features of hmap2.exe you will isolate youre mod to being darkplaces only, as some engines do not support some of the hmap2.exe features like hmap2.exe -darkplaces which allows for super huge polygons/worlds.
    Last edited by MadGypsy; 06-22-2012, 01:55 PM.
    http://www.nextgenquake.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by MadGypsy View Post
      GTKRadint or NetRadiant (if you want portability) for map making
      hmap2.exe is a good compiler
      neoTextureEdit is a decent procedural texture editor

      and I already packaged and set up all of this here
      Gypsy first let me thank you for this and also for putting the fantastic material in the "Become a Quake Modder" thread!

      I understand it's a lot of work to write this all up, and I find it very valuable! Unlike someone in that thread said, I don't think it makes sense to present this in the form of YouTube videos, though. Text is better! Because with text everyone can learn and experiment at his own pace, and it is much easier to refer to it.

      I have only skim-read that thread so far but it looks very good and has top-priority on my reading list. I have downloaded the compilation of programs and texts you put together.

      There's this tutorial included - I don't know who wrote it and it doesn't seem to have a title or where it's from. Anyway that tutorial is pure gold. Using worldcraft and the tut I made a very simlple first room with lights, obstacles and an enemy... I always try to dive into something new like this, first try to get something done to have a sense of achievement and see that it's possible, then read up on the details and more advanced stuff.

      It's fun and I now read & learn how to apply different textures, do more advanced level architecture etc... it's fun!

      One question, in this thread you mention QTKRadiant and NetRadiant, but these are not mentioned in the other thread nor incluced in your compilation, instead there's worldcraft. Which editor do you recommend? And also, are the raw, uncompiled levels compatible between all the editors? That is, if I start a level in worldcraft could I switch to NetRadiant later and continue working on it?

      I also downloaded NetRadiant, but it just crashes for me. So there's something I need to work a bit more on.

      there is only one thing for you to set up. When you open NetRadiant double click the wad listing that is not gfx.wad in the texture browser. This will load all the textures. Start making your map and at some point before you compile it - select one of your brushes and click view/entity inspector. Next to "wad" type the name of the wad you loaded.

      [...]
      Regarding this and all the following paragraphs, I must admit I have no idea what you are talking about! But I guess it will make sense as soon as I got NetRadiant up & running.
      Last edited by Mike_Tyson; 07-01-2012, 09:20 AM. Reason: typos
      The more they [computers] know, the slower they get — as opposed to the human mind, which has the opposite property. David W. Hillis

      Comment


      • #4
        Radiant and Worldcraft are widely used.

        The later version of Worldcraft (3.3?) creates maps in Valve 220 format, which is incompatible with many other editors. This produces ugly problems when working in a team of mappers, but if you never plan to do that, you can ignore it.

        Personally I recommend Radiant but you should try a few editors to see what you like best, they're quite different.

        There is no simple answer since people work best with the tool that is right for them.

        For compiling I suggest Bengt Jardrup's TXQBSP, and BengtLightColoured modified by MH.

        The Homepage of Bengt Jardrup

        mhquake

        Here is a graphical compiler frontend

        ne_q1spCompilingGui The Shores of Nis

        Just try and see what fits you.

        Regarding the "it's 2012" idea, practically nothing has changed in how Quake maps are made actually. It's largely the same tools.
        Scout's Journey
        Rune of Earth Magic

        Comment


        • #5
          One question, in this thread you mention QTKRadiant and NetRadiant, but these are not mentioned in the other thread nor incluced in your compilation, instead there's worldcraft. Which editor do you recommend? And also, are the raw, uncompiled levels compatible between all the editors? That is, if I start a level in worldcraft could I switch to NetRadiant later and continue working on it?
          My first Q-Develop was called QDev and it had Worldcraft instead of Radiant. I thought I fixed all the links when I updated.....Ah I see, you downloaded the link that says "Complete map building kit with resources". My mistake, I should have been more clear, you want to download the link that says "Q-Develop" if you intend to use Radiant.

          Pros/Cons

          Worldcraft is much simpler

          You will not be able to open your Worldcraft .map in Radiant or the other way around (without a lot of bullshit)

          Worldcraft does not make true Q1 .bsps. It makes HalfLife .bsps.

          Radiant has quite a bit of features that you cannot use for Quake 1 (like caulk)
          http://www.nextgenquake.com

          Comment


          • #6
            I would like to ask a couple of questions while I am learning how to make levels. I wonder if I can post them here or if the "Become a Quake modder" thread is better?!

            For the moment I'll stick with worldcraft.

            Anyway my current question is, how can I change the direction the entity "player_info_start" is facing?

            I.e. how can I control in which direction the player looks at the very beginning? I don't see anything indicating where player_info_facing is facing, or how I can change it.

            P.S.: Never mind! Figured it out: select the player_info_start entity. Right click --> properties. Then I can change the angle.
            Last edited by Mike_Tyson; 06-27-2012, 11:01 AM. Reason: answering my own question : )
            The more they [computers] know, the slower they get — as opposed to the human mind, which has the opposite property. David W. Hillis

            Comment


            • #7
              One nitpick regarding those "superfluous" Radiant features...

              Once you start mapping for DP or FTE, and start using the much superior Quake 3 bsp format that those clients support, then you can and should use these features (caulk, patch meshes...), and Worldcraft will be useless.

              Another nitpick; Worldcraft produces Valve 220 format .map files. Not .bsp files - those are not created by the map editor, but by the compiler. And the usual Q1 map compilers produce Q1 .bsp files, even from Valve 220 format maps.

              The problem is that Worldcraft's .map files (and the texture .wad files as well) cannot be loaded into an editor that expects standard Quake .map files, such as Radiant. I'm not gonna lie; the whole worldcraft format situation is a huge PITA for people who work in a team and have to potentially work on other people's maps as a result (example, Remake Quake shortly before I left the team).

              If you release your map sources under, say, the GPL, and they are in Valve 220 format, you're basically telling every non-Worldcraft user to fuck off. Inherently. The maps and textures might as well be encrypted.

              Don't take this personally, Mike_Tyson, it applies only to situations where the map sources are shared between several people.
              Scout's Journey
              Rune of Earth Magic

              Comment


              • #8
                goldenboy, thanks for emphasizing this.

                I agree that it's important to have a level format as open and interchangeable as possible.

                I think worldcraft is still okay for trying out things. Beginning is always the hardest part.

                Also what's good is that I have this excellent tutorial mentioned above, which is worldcraft specific. I just hadn't time to search if something similar exists for NetRadiant.

                NetRadiant for some reason changes my Win 7 color scheme to "basic" immediately, and generally it seems to run a bit unstable for me. But I'll give it a try.

                In the mid-term, I'm sure I will make the change to another editor.
                The more they [computers] know, the slower they get — as opposed to the human mind, which has the opposite property. David W. Hillis

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by "me"
                  Worldcraft does not make true Q1 .bsps. It makes HalfLife .bsps
                  Originally posted by "GB"
                  Another nitpick; Worldcraft produces Valve 220 format .map files. Not .bsp files
                  oops - good catch GB. I screwed up that one effortlessly LOL. I'm glad I screwed it up publically, that has been a source of confusion for me that I thought I had understood. Now I definitely understand. However, I obviously knew that the compiler makes the bsp, that part was a typo.
                  One nitpick regarding those "superfluous" Radiant features...
                  I made it clear that they are superfluous for Quake 1. I'd love it if they weren't. My brushes are super complex and it would be much easier to use curves, etc and patch the mesh.
                  and start using the much superior Quake 3 bsp format
                  How do I do this? Do I need Quake 3 (I'm assuming I would)? Is there a Quake 3 for free (even in part)? Does Quake 3 use .QC as it's code language? I have ripped Quake 1 to pieces and am more than familiar with most of all of it's parts. I haven't even ever played Quake 3.
                  Last edited by MadGypsy; 06-27-2012, 02:53 PM.
                  http://www.nextgenquake.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yeah, I don't want to discourage anyone from using Worldcraft where it's appropriate. It's just a bit of info I wanted to point out.

                    Gypsy, you would simply use the Quake 3 map compiler. This only concerns the BSP format, not the rest of the game. Obviously the engine needs to support q3bsp.

                    The major difference is that you'd have to use Quake 3 "shaders" (materials) instead of texture wads. I'm not sure if anyone has ever converted the entire QRP texture set to Q3 shader format, but I'm sure it is doable.

                    I'm pretty sure you don't need Quake 3, I think Q3bsp gets loaded and interpreted by the engine in a similar way to BSP2.

                    I've only converted one of my maps to Q3 format so far (Warsow fbsp format actually) and I used the Warsow shaders and engine (ie. QFusion). I've yet to try homebrew QRP shaders and the FTE/DP engines but see no reason why it wouldn't work.



                    Here's one of my maps converted, compiled as fbsp (warsow q3bsp variant) and running in Warsow multiplayer. The conversion process leaves all entities intact, including lights. Doors, buttons, info_player_start etc. even work in Warsow despite the proof-of-concept nature of it all. The textures are existing Warsow shaders that I quickly slapped on in Radiant, but I could as well make my own using the QRP textures as a base. Then the map would look much as it does under (Remake)Quake, only better because q3map2 has better lighting options and of course I could start using patches etc.

                    I'll explore this more in the future, but I would probably use FTE rather than QFusion. The advantage of fbsp is that it supports lightstyles, unlike stock q3bsp.

                    If I'm not mistaken there are already games that use q3bsp combined with QuakeC and Darkplaces. This is also what the Darkplaces gamepack in Radiant is for.
                    Scout's Journey
                    Rune of Earth Magic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      hmmm, It's like relearning everything I know but differently. I'll see if I can get this all working in the near future. Then I'll package it all up and write a complete tutorial so no one has to figure out all the beginning stuff.
                      http://www.nextgenquake.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ok I think I'd like to take the plunge and get started with radiant now, too.

                        gb, I was wondering if you can recommend a tutorial specifically for radiant and Quake 1? I found your excellent tut in this thread http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-hel...g-radiant.html.

                        Although this is excellent and very, very helpful it is not complete i.e. there are still many points regarding specifically Quake 1 which are not explained. Your thread is very good on the modelling, but I am also wondering on how to do the level mechanics in radiant (buttons, teleporters, doors, moving platforms) and how to make a "complete" level which has an end, things like that.

                        So I was wondering if you can recommend additional material?

                        I think you mention that you want to move the tut to your blog at spawnhost. I searched your blog but could not find it there though.

                        By the way about your blog, it is very interesting, I like reading it.

                        Scout's Journey looks most awesome! Can't wait to play this.

                        Just wondering, is level designing something you do just in your spare time or are you doing this professionally as well?

                        I have a computer-related day job which has nothing to do with 3D grafics (I'm doing genomics research). So in the evenings I'm often quite tired of staring at the screen and don't have much time left each day. But I hope I can make progress with my own small Quake projects.
                        Last edited by Mike_Tyson; 07-02-2012, 12:02 PM. Reason: typos
                        The more they [computers] know, the slower they get — as opposed to the human mind, which has the opposite property. David W. Hillis

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In radiant you make entities by right clicking the screen and choosing the entity you want from the pop up menu. However this will only get you the entity youwant, making it do what you want is a bit more complicated (not much though). By shift selecting an entity and selecting edit/entity inspector you will be presented with the properties panel for that entity. This is where the "magic" happens. I am not going to explain every possibility for each entity but I will give you examples.

                          *the brush you are entifying must always be selected (shift+left click) while you are choosing it's entity type and modifying it's properties in the entity inspector (EI), for all examples.

                          Doors
                          1)draw a brush
                          2)right click and select func_door
                          3) EI - choose direction to move, amount of lip, speed, whether or not it's already open & whether it resets to it's original state by telling it how long to wait before returning (-1 = never)

                          Wall
                          1)draw a brush
                          2)right click and select func_wall
                          *) this is used for complicated geometry to reduce r_speeds. It does not have to be used for an actual wall and it will not cast shadows. If it has some other purpose I'm all ears

                          Teleports
                          1)Draw a brush
                          2)right click and select trigger teleport
                          3)EI - give it a target
                          4) deselect (esc) the brush
                          5) right click (without drawing a brush) and select info_teleport_destination
                          6) select the diamond that appears
                          7) EI - give it a targetname that is identical to the name you wrote in "target" for trigger_teleport

                          Standard trigger
                          1)draw a brush
                          2) right click and select trigger_once
                          3) give it a target of an entities targetname that you want to trigger

                          For instance say you wanted to turn a light on and the light had a targetname of "dungeon_floor_light", you would give the trigger a target of "dungeon_floor_light" and it will do whatever is the opposite of the targets current state when you trigger it. If the light is on it will turn off and opposite. You can trigger anything. Triggering monsters wakes them up. Re-triggering them will do nothing. Things like Armor, health, etc can be used just like a trigger by simply using the target field in an identical manner from above.

                          I am going to end this with a complicated Monster Teleporter

                          1) draw a brush outside your map
                          2)click hollow
                          3)select the floor and press space(duplicate)
                          4) move the duplicated floor up to where it is sitting on the actual floor
                          5)right click and choose trigger_teleport
                          6)EI give it a targetname of "tt_1" and a target of "teleport_1"
                          7)deselct (esc) and draw a new brush in your map
                          right click and choose info_teleport_destination
                          9)give it a targetname of "teleport_1"
                          10)move it wherever you want the monster to appear
                          11)deselect it and draw a new brush
                          12)right click and choose "trigger_once"
                          13)EI - give it a target of "tt_1"
                          14)move it to wherever you want the triggering of the monster teleportation to happen
                          15) deselect it and right-click choose a monster_ and put it in the first room I said to make

                          what happens - the monster is walking all over the trigger_teleport but it won't activate til you touch the trigger_once that calls it

                          With the exception of func_train, this is all pretty much the same stuff over and over again. I'm not gonna explain in anymore detail but func_train uses path_corner to be told where to go next. each path corner should have a target of the next targetname to move to.
                          http://www.nextgenquake.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm sorry I have neglected my Radiant tutorial in a very long time. Several people asked for it to cover things like map compiling, lighting and making entities... I do want to move it to my own blog. I hope I can get it started now.

                            I do game design as a hobby at this point, I'm not sure I want to move into the industry. Right now I want to finish Scout's Journey. I've been working on that for over 5 years, for the longest time as a part of Remake Quake.

                            Like Gypsy pointed out, to create an entity in radiant, there are 2 ways:

                            Brush entities: First, build the door or what-have-you out of brushes. Select (shift click) the brushes that make up the door (you can select stuff in the 3D viewport if you like) and then right click into the 2D viewport to bring up the entities menu. Select e.g. func_door from the menu. This will turn your bunch of brushes into a door. There is also an unbind function in the main menu which turns such an entity back into brushes.

                            (Triggers, buttons, lifts etc are also brush entities.)

                            Point entities: As above, but without selecting anything first. Right-click to bring up the entity window roughly where you want the entity, then correct its placement. Radiant by default places a new enity in the same place as your last-selected thing.

                            (Lights are the main point entity, as well as the player start entity, path_corners, info_notnulls and ambient sounds etc.)

                            The difference between the two is simply that point entities have no volume. It follows logically that everything that can be touched or collided with (like a trigger or a button) must be a brush entity - "U can't touch" something that has no volume.

                            Some entities are named misleadingly and are not what they seem. Trigger_counter and trigger_relay come to mind. Those can't be touched and hence they can be point entities.

                            Finally, you can target one entity at another. It is most common to target a trigger towards a platform, or to target a button to a door. This is done by giving (in the latter case) the door a "targetname" field (such as targetname mydoor) and give the button a "target" field (target mydoor). Pressing the button will then open the door.

                            There is a lot more to it. I might just sit down and write a full tutorial including stuff like angles and spawnflags.

                            I understand about the pain of staring at a screen - mapping, like programming, is often tedious and it's an iterative process, too. I have little tactics to get myself to open the map editor and start working

                            Every day a little.
                            Scout's Journey
                            Rune of Earth Magic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Mad Gypsy, gb: thank you!

                              Wow I just wondered if you could point me elsewhere and you even describe in detail... thanks!

                              I really want to try this out. At the moment I am a bit stuck with GtkRadiant though. I tried NetRadiant first and it doesn't really work on my machine. So I got GtkRadiant 1.5.0 instead. This I could install and it seems to work well, but I am stuck a bit with getting it to load the textures.

                              Maybe it's because I don't really understand what WAD and PAK files are, or what the difference between them is or if I can convert them. Anyway I have described my problem here:

                              http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-hel...tml#post115169

                              Maybe someone can help.

                              "Every day a little", I agree that's the way to go!

                              --
                              My development machine: Vaio WGN-Z21GN laptop with GeForce 9300 M GS, Core2 Duo @ 2.4 GHz, 2GB RAM, Windows 7 (32 Bit)
                              The more they [computers] know, the slower they get — as opposed to the human mind, which has the opposite property. David W. Hillis

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X