No new "decorative" models?

[damage_inc]

I was just curious, is there a reason that there isn't many new "decorative" models made for Quake? I know regular monster entities are animated and difficult but static models for decoration in a level seem simpler? And would add so much to the atmosphere, jus' curious.

Is it cause they wouldn't light correctly? Or a memory load issue? Or what?

Thanks in advance,
- damage_

[Spike]

prefabs are about the only way you could do it with q1bsp, lighting-wise.

such prefabs would have low enough brush/surface counts that they can be knocked up about as easily as finding one that looks nice enough to bother with downloading/installing.

I suppose.

[MadGypsy]

Hey Damage, whats going on with your map? There has been no updates in a long time. You didn't abandon your art, right? I'm half way through an entire CMS that is already longer than a QC source. What I am saying is, I have "rewritten all of a QC source" in the time it has taken you to...?

Not trying to be a dick. We could all use a push from time to time.

Actually Imma be a bully and push everyone real quick.

Phenom, you been working on your mod? I am nearing some deserved free time. It would be a shame if I became available to write your QC and you weren't ready for me.

How is the dragon coming Bluntz?

Been a while Killpixel..How is r_speed uh I mean cartographers nightmare coming along?

Capnbubs gimme my damn drugs!

[capnbubs]

Capnbubs gimme my damn drugs!

What am I your dealer now? xD

Damage I was wondering about this, how out of place would it look to use a few decorative models here and there. Guess somebody would have to try it and see how it looks.

[MadGypsy]

in worldcraft 3 there are a bunch of prefabs that could easily be exported. Coke machines and other random stuff

[damage_inc]

Ummmm... May I plead the FIFTH Your Honorable Judge 'Gypsy! Hehe

Nah man, I don't take it as being a dick... it's online bro, no worries! I do need a push, as I hit a FREAKIN' huge creative wall. Otherwise known in part as slacking!

If they were textured correctly capnbubs, and were simply computer terminals and such might not be out of place at all. Coke machines... yeah that would be odd :-P

[MadGypsy]

I can help you Damage. I can help you right this minute with your creative wall.

do any/all of the below

1) go through your entire map and tighten up any loose ends in completed areas. This MAY start spurring you to "realize" that you want an X "in the corner"

2) Add a new room. Just build a room. F the layout or any congruency. Just start making shapes and building up brushwork. This MAY start a series of "connecting dots" in your head and actually lead to idea overload.

3) start a completely different map. This is sort of 2, but by the map not even being connected to your current one it MAY (lol) add the bonus of it being fresh. So, you don't feel like you have to follow a theme or have any restraints. You have a new canvas to explore.

4) Get a cup of coffee (or whatever you like to drink), turn on some of your favorite music (kinda low), get in a real comfy spot and simply relax with a pad and a pen (turn off ALL computers/phones/etc). Maybe you'll start drawing boxes and ideas or maybe you will start writing ideas. There are no rules, let your subconscious decide how it will use your hand.

In my experience there really is no such thing as a creative block. The creativity (if it was ever there) is always there. Your "block" comes from trying to push or pull your art in a certain direction that it doesn't want to go, so you hit a wall cause you stopped working towards the door.

I have one last piece of info for you. No matter what you make, there WILL be people that love it and people that hate it. In my world, that means all the people cancel each other out and the only thing that matters is what I want from my work. When you start looking at it like that, there is no deadline or expectations to meet. You remove the stress factor entirely and your work becomes something that you can enjoy. In the end, my friend, the only thing that matters is that you are enjoying your work.

{gang hand signs},
Gypsy

[golden_boy]

You mean new assets, environment art, mapmodels to make vanilla Quake look more interesting?

You can bet people would scream "that's not Quake!" within 5 minutes of someone posting the screenshot.

Anyway like Spike said, models are not lit correctly in Quake 1.

What you could do is convert all of Romero's map sources to Quake 3 format, in which case you could use the q3map2 compiler to bake static meshes into the map with correct lighting and collision. This would also result in higher resolution lightmaps and the possibility to use shaders for lava etc.

The resulting maps could only be played in engines that support q3bsp.

I have no idea why q3bsp isn't standard in the Q1 community by now, it is a much better format than q1bsp. Probably because it's not supported by Worldcraft and because Q1 people are just ultraconservative.

[FifthElephant]

It depends on the type of model, I don't see the need for big geometry to be replaced with fancy models. But I do like usage of candles and candle-stands, large flags/banners and such in some maps I have seen. I think it should be conservative, not least because of model limits, but also to retain a classic feel. Plus there's always room for better and more complicated brushwork.

[MadGypsy]

I agree with both of you and you actually agree with each other by elimination of not really talking about the same thing.

I liked that Seven was sticking a bunch of crazy stuff in Quake (water pipes and what-not). I didn't think it fit very well, but it added something fresh to the environment and had a "fun" quality. (imo)

If everything is solely and exclusively about Quake, yeah sure, don't change a thing. Just re-arrange the same geometry and textures to infinity, til you have created every possible Quake. You could probably even write an algorithm to do it for you. You could even call it EPiQ. Every Possible Quake - (the i works cause you are probably gonna have to use a lot of Pi).

It would be a super small download too. You just need 1 folder of files and 3 more exterior files

1) a library of sensical (ie not a wall at a time) map geometry, textures and elements that is already in map format
2) an algorithm to parse all of that into a "possible map" and export it as .map
3) a compiler & wad setup

There ya go (@someone). I just invented an entire project, laid out the basic method to build from and even relevantly named it. Make it so.


psssh...I could build this and I could use parsing delimiters to do it...and it would work. However, it aint gonna happen, certainly not any time soon.

____

correction: I could parse the first info and get exactly whatever you want. It would take someone with far greater math skills than mine to make all of that fit together properly.

[FifthElephant]

When I say "retain the classic feel" I didn't mean "don't add anything new"... I like what capnbubs has begun with his authentic models, it feels like Quake+. I love Quoth''s expanded monster roster, Sock's amazingly good ITS mod (those new custom textures are a thing of beauty!)... Nothing wrong with keeping things faithful to the design of the original game.
I personally don't think the current model format or its implimentation works on a larger scale, it's nice for "flavour detail" but it's not really great for big architectural work. Golden_boy's idea of baked prefab models sounds nice but I'm not sure how wide-spread it would become or be supported, this community is small and the "keep it simple, stupid" ideas tend to work better.

[MadGypsy]

It's so supported that its the default build for Radiant and some well known, quality, Quake engines implement it flawlessly.

Golden_boy's idea of baked prefab models sounds nice, but...

That's hilarious, brah. I'm pretty sure what you just said (but didn't know you said) is:

"The way it's actually done sounds good in theory, but.."

It's ok, I could show you a reply golden_boy gave me to one of my questions (a long time ago) and then have no problem making you empathize my thoughts after reading it.

{clasps face and massages brain} "It just never ends.. You learn all kinds of stuff and then it isnt even ...anything, cause there is just a whole bunch more stuff no matter how much stuff you think you have learned. I can't even keep all of this in my brain. {glitch ~bzzt~}. Fuck stuff, Imma go sit in the corner, hug my knees and quietly rock til it all goes away."

that's how I felt...kinda still do

[golden_boy]

Well. I tend to be a bit in your face sometimes, it's normal where I come from.

Anyway, yeah, the q3bsp way of doing things does absolutely work, and if you use Darkplaces and Radiant, you can simply go and do it without further preparation. You'll need to learn a modeling program like Blender, too.

It gives you the option to pretty much just bake models into the BSP.

It will never be widely used or supported, because it requires Quake 3 map support to become standard in Quake engines (won't happen) and in Quake level editors (won't happen either).

But work it does, and flawlessly.

If you want it to work with GLquake, Fitzquake etc, then you can either use .mdl format and a mod that supports it (Quoth or RMQ misc_model), or prefabs made from brushes.

There is no common library of mapmodels that Quake mappers use, probably simply because vanilla Quake doesn't support such a thing.

You need either a mod (a custom progs.dat), or q3bsp/Darkplaces/FTE/Radiant/Blender/...

The mod route works for candles and the like - everything that doesn't need to cast shadows or collide properly (by that I mean, more exact collision than just a box) - but the q3bsp route will be required for proper lighting and collision.

I did some barrels etc last year, still using Quake 1 BSP format (and IQM for the models):

Props | spawnhost

More AO going on | spawnhost

Ambient occlusion | spawnhost



I was baking AO maps to make up for the lack of proper lighting; however, that won't make your props cast shadows. Notice how none of the barrels etc. in the shots linked above cast any shadows. Also note how some models just appear black. These props are nonsolid, btw - you would need clipbrushes or bounding boxes to make them appear solid, which is a hacky solution that doesn't work very well.



I later moved on to use q3bsp, as outlined above.



This is with q3bsp in FTE, notice how the props cast shadows now. This method also allows for the models to be solid and collide according to their actual shape.



The upper screenshots are from the Remake Quake project that nobody liked, the lower ones are a testmap with Scout's Journey props.

[damage_inc]

Super thanks for the all info(screneies, links etc) g_b, I love looking at your "work". And read your blog semi-regularly.

You guys confirmed what I thought... lighting/shadows and collision a no go.

[FifthElephant]

It's so supported that its the default build for Radiant and some well known, quality, Quake engines implement it flawlessly.



That's hilarious, brah. I'm pretty sure what you just said (but didn't know you said) is:

"The way it's actually done sounds good in theory, but.."

Oh I know what I said, I meant it... Radiant might support it but it's the engines that make the game work. More features are always welcome, if they're supported