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Oblige, do anyone tried it?

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  • #16
    so doom puts the maps in a wad? I really don't know. I played Doom like 2 times in my whole life and both times I turned it off before I finished the first level. In short and IMO that is the worst 3d game ever and if I'm not mistaken it's not even really 3d (or maybe it's not entirely 3d).

    I know doom has a decent following, maybe even one that rivals and partially overlaps Quake but I personally don't see the appeal. I remember watching some Doom mod video on YouTube and thinking "why?".

    Lately I find myself playing all the unfinished mods that people sent me for writing some QC for them (and other reasons). It's perfect cause, I usually only want to waste 15 minutes or so and since I have the raw files I can easily mod peoples mods. I put like 20 shamblers in one room of Cartographers Nightmare and nothing but tons of shotgun shells for ammo. It's pretty hard.
    Last edited by MadGypsy; 04-26-2014, 11:10 AM.
    http://www.nextgenquake.com

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    • #17
      wad - Wheres All the Data. doom's version of pak files, just more special case and not really equivelent to a nice friendly filesystem at all. which is why all maps need to actually be in a wad (technically they're blocks of files with names that conflict with other maps, with some leading file saying where they start. its messy as hell).

      there are already doom->quake converters. hence why it would be simpler.
      Some Game Thing

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      • #18
        @MadGypsy

        Doom is a decent FPS. It is in fact one of the best. You are like, 1% of the entire population that doesn't like Doom. I just recently played through The Ultimate Doom and Doom II and immediately wanted more, so I start making maps. I absolutely love it.
        But oh well, opinions, opinions. Sorry for Off-Topic.

        I wouldn't say the maps Oblige/Obhack make are good kickstarters for new mappers.. no, not at all. I'm a new mapper myself, and it's a lot more fun planning and designing a map from scratch.
        "I want gay married couples to be able to protect their marijuana plants with guns."

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        • #19
          You are like, 1% of the entire population that doesn't like Doom.
          WooHoo! I'm a one percenter bitches!

          I wouldn't say the maps Oblige/Obhack make are good kickstarters for new mappers..
          Honestly, I have done 0% research and/or usage of Oblige. Everything I have said so far is based on the concept that, if enough random maps are generated you eventually have to get to one that would be a good start point. The only flaw in my opinion is I have no idea what those odds are. If the odds are like 1 in 50, then maybe its not such a bad thing to try. If the odds are 1 in 2 million well, there really is no point.

          I was also going on the total assumption that if you found a layout you like it shouldn't be hard to strip it of all the bells and whistles, down to just the actual layout. This also depends though. For instance what if part of the layout requires a teleporter or lift. That completely ruins the possibility of any one click entity removal. Now you have to delete specific entities in groups. Which still isn't the end of the world, but that isn't to say that there aren't other possibilities where you have to go down to deleting individual entities.

          In the end it really is a completely up in the air thing. Without some solid odds and ends there really is no way to accurately determine how hard it would be to use an Oblige .map as a base if it was capable of spitting out .maps.

          That's the real point here. All of this is fantasy and there are no correct answers cause Oblige can't spit out .maps. Who's to say that if Oblige could make a .map that it wouldn't also have been made to configure what (and if) entities appear? If the program would have taken a different route, then it would have taken a different route. It's all a mystery.
          http://www.nextgenquake.com

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          • #20
            Well there were some maps which Obhack spit out that I liked, but everything looks the same and you easily get lost without using the automap. Nah, nah, make a new map from 0. If a new mapper really needs a kickstarter, then he/she could just look at maps which were designed, like the official maps. That's ten times better than something completely randomly generated, even if the random map is good.
            "I want gay married couples to be able to protect their marijuana plants with guns."

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ezzetabi View Post
              Oblige, the description is:

              OBLIGE is a random level generator for various classic games, including Quake, DOOM, DOOM II, and Heretic. The goal is to produce high quality levels which are fun to play.

              I tried few maps with SMC on top and, while no-where nice as handwritten maps, I found it quite fun...
              I want to try Oblige on Doom II yeah.... sounds pretty fun, for random speedrun challenge never know exactly what path to expect...

              plus the concept itself of oblige is really really unique i say for FPS games i hope they keep developing and perfecting it

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              • #22
                If a new mapper really needs a kickstarter, then he/she could just look at maps which were designed, like the official maps. That's ten times better than something completely randomly generated, even if the random map is good.
                OK, I'll bite. How are official maps 10x better than a good randomly generated map?

                The official maps aren't even very good in my opinion. Most of it is nonsensical hallway land.

                "Oh look I'm in a dark hallway. Now, I'm in a dark hallway with water below me. Now I'm in a dark hallway with spikes being shot at me.... Watch out! At the end of this hallway is a Shambler followed by another hallway. Lets go down these stairs to a hallway. Oh look a secret, it's in a hallway. Oh wow a nice big open area [turns corner] and now I'm back in a hallway"

                I know why everything is corridors (hallways) but that don't mean it's good.
                http://www.nextgenquake.com

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                • #23
                  So you're saying a randomly generated map with always the same patterns and absolutely nonsensical levels are better than or equal to maps which were planned and designed from scratch? Then what's the point of level designing. Just make a random generator, boom, infinite amount of shitty maps.

                  "The official maps aren't even very good in my opinion. Most of it is nonsensical hallway land."

                  Graphical, maybe. But gameplay wise, no. Because the mapper planned at which point the player should be experiencing certain things, rather than just "Here a couple of rooms, some doors, some crates, some enemies, and ammo and health all over the fucking place, and this lift leads to a room with nothing in it at all which leads to another empty room which leads to another room with only a couple of enemies. Look, a blue door. And look, right next to it is the blue key, how convenient! What's behind the door? An empty room with some enemies, how exciting! And if you go back to the spawn area you will find that the exit was right behind the door all along, next to this crate which goes up and down, meaning the entire map is pointless. Hooray random generators!"

                  It doesn't need to be hallways, you can do whatever the heck you want. That's the beauty of designing maps. Oblige/Obhack can't do that, unless you modify the program.

                  New mappers can look at the designs of the maps to gain some knowledge, see what the creators did and how they have done it, see how well paced the map is, the placement of the items and enemies, where at which point they would put secrets and what these secrets contain, where the doors are and where they placed the respective keys or buttons and how the player is supposed to reach it, etc. The map makers have to plan all that stuff. Sure they could just randomly shit out room after room with a billion enemies and ammo and guns and health with totally obvious and easy to reach secrets, but that's simply no fun at all. Planning maps is key to a fun first person shooter experience. That's simply better than a mindless generator shitting out maps with the same pattern over and over again. Sure you might get one or two enjoyable maps once in a while, but they simply don't have soul, and the patterns and texture choice simply get boring after a while. Even the level designers at DICE and Infinity Ward do a greater job than Oblige/Obhack.

                  In games like Minecraft or Terraria, that's where random generators do a good job. But we're talking about FPS. Unique and clever designed levels are simply more entertaining than generic dumb shit which you play over and over and over again.

                  Besides, making your own maps from scratch is just rewarding. After hours and days of working, it's almost orgasmic seeing yourself in the lovely world you have just created by yourself. Sure, it will probably lack quality, some things may be inefficient, but still, this is your map and yours alone, and with every new map you build, you get better and better. Simply editing the map of some randomly generated map doesn't feel the same, and you don't learn much of it either.

                  I hope you understand what I'm saying, English isn't my first language and it happens too often that I wanna explain something but kinda say it in the wrong way, and it ends up not being what I wanted to say at all.
                  "I want gay married couples to be able to protect their marijuana plants with guns."

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                  • #24
                    So you're saying a randomly generated map with always the same patterns and absolutely nonsensical levels are better than or equal to maps which were planned and designed from scratch
                    Where did you get that idea? I didn't say that at all. I'm not trying to say that either is better than the other. I am merely defending the fact that randomly generated maps have potential, whereas you are claiming they have none.

                    Also, random and "same pattern" are not compatible terms. Random map generation is more powerful than you may think click

                    In all honesty I did not read your entire post cause it began by claiming something I never said, so I assumed the rest was also irrelevant or convoluted. I'm not trying to be a dick. It's just a lot of text to read with a precursor that discredits your understanding.
                    http://www.nextgenquake.com

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