Feedback needed - Mod

[LambentHammerBurst]

Been working on it, did come across some issues with the limits of the game engine. Seems like you can only have 24 IT_*name*. This is ammo/armor/guns/powerups.
However upon looking in MP2's code they introduced IT2_*name* this allows another 24 - but to do it I will either have to move all of their code to match it or make various if statements (if my weapons are mixed in IT_ and IT2_). For "clean code" I actually intend to move all the non-weapon pickups to IT2_ which will take a bit of time BUT has worked.

As for my above Chainlightning. After giving it 2 episode playthroughs using ONLY it (gave it infinite ammo for testing lol). I've found the second option is the best.
The first option in many cases made it useless as the chaining wouldn't hit other targets due to it's range but increasing it any more made it too unbalanced. So some tweaks and it seems perfect. You can use it in the same situations you use the Lightning Gun however each excel in different aspects - which is what you want for weapons which are similar.
Lightning Gun - Can deal 300 damage in a second to a single target if you keep the stream on the enemy. It however eats ammo, and if you don't have the constant stream on the enemy - you will lose much ammo. When in groups it's great too but again you face the issue of eating ammo and wasting much.
Chain Lightning Gun - MUCH slower rate of fire, it's actually 1/5th or 1/10th however you look at it. Fires a single shot, 1ce per second - it deals damage of 2 shots though. The range is slightly greater too. You can use it in the same situation as a lightning gun. However you do take a risk if you miss a shot. However it's damage makes up for it and will also conserve your ammo greatly. However 1vs1 - use the Lightning Gun. In a group against you is where you need to pull this gun out. 1 shot deals massive damage. Yes it's still 60 damage (equal to 2 cells) - however if the enemies are close enough it's 60 to the target hit and 55 to EACH target hit by the chain. So if you fired this into a room with 10 Grunts all close together, 1 shot = 10 kills. This gun however with Quad - honestly forget the Lightning Gun if you are in a group of enemies. Doesn't even compare at all. That's 240 damage to the hit target and 220 for every target hit by the arcs.

[Spinvis]

I have been reading every post in this thread, awesome idea ooppee, sounds a lot like TSL Restored Content Mod for KOTOR 2, or the Space Quest 4 NRS patch, by adding lost and cut content back in the game plus a few extras. Are you maybe inspired by those or similar projects? Also the idea of getting warped to MP1 after finished Quake sounds really good, which combines Q1 and MP1 and 2 into one game.

If you need a beta tester i would happily help out since my coding skills are limited.

[seanstar]

your mod ideas are great OoPpEe

this could be the end all quake mod.

how about a doom style plasma gun?

[LambentHammerBurst]

Couldn't add any more weapons. I maxed out the bitflags with 24 entities. I "cheated" to get one more weapon in by using a value of 2049.
2048(Axe)+1(Shotgun)=3. As you have both those weapons at spawn - using the value of 2049 makes it always true and results in you having it. Although one bug about it though is I made all guns (not axe or grapple) tossable - however if you toss the normal shotgun - you keep it due to the bitflag being 3. So only way to avoid that is to make the normal shotty not tossable nor stealable. Something I didn't want to go the route with as the player can get replacements for it - QTest Shotgun - earned by gibbing a Grunt using it or Enforcer Lasergun - earned also by gibbing him and those weapons are "Slot 2" weapons (Shotgun). So tossing it won't hurt you. However I guess it would make sense to force a player to hold onto at least a single weapon.
I could drop the grappling hook (what uses the bitflag of 3) - however it's useful for CTF. I know this mod wouldn't be used online really so I've also considered making it available is SP but for balance (this aspect being SP/Co Op only) - regenerating "ammo". Uses the rate of fire of the Lightning Gun in the sense of ammo drain, has a max of 20. To get the idea - take the lightning gun and drain 50 cells and keep track of the time. Now fire the grappling hook - the hook will only be active for that long - both in firing and carrying the player. So if you fire it a long distance, you will not get anywhere as it will cancel shortly after. Would make it useful for area's you'd normally rocket jump to - just wouldn't damage yourself.
In multiplayer it wouldn't have ammo and just function as it did in the Mission Pack (minus the bug of using next weapon to stay grappled and be able to attack - as I fixed that)

@SpinVis - I am actually nearing completion on the weapons aspect. I have a bug that I need help fixing - actually a simple { and } issue. It's just in a part that has 547 lines of code (W_ChangeWeapon) and finding where I made my "boo boo" is causing a delay. I sent a PM off to Dr.ShadowBorg to see if he can help fix it - as it's his code that made ALL the weapons being able to be in a single mod possible. Once I get this bug fixed (or if ShadowBorg fixes for) then I am basically on my way to having a beta to be tested by a select few. Wouldn't have Hipnotic/SoA enemies yet - only the weapons.

Have a couple other minor bugs/issues:
-like the Prox mine bleeds if you shoot it. That's a simple fix though.
-Making the gremlins able to use all the extra guns. Simple but time consuming. I will tell you this though, it's hilarious and scary when they steal a Multi-Grenade/Rocket Launcher. Hilarious when you have a big group of them and it gets stolen as he usually kills them all for you, but if he hits ya - you're dead instantly - and he's effective at doing that as he tends to shoot you up close.
-This last issue is the hardest part:
Making the Mission Pack weapons available in all each "game". As this requires you to copy the SoA pak to a folder and the DoE pak to the same folder (named pak1.pak though) with pak2.pak being the mods. You play through this as a single whole game. Presently I just have it being each game with QTest weapons added to each. I want to do the whole - Take the Dragon on with the Laser Cannon for SoA, kill Armagon with the Multi-Launchers and Plasma Gun. However adding those to their opposite mission pack (and to id1) is where I am struggling to find a good way. I can easily add the lavanails/multirockets/plasma to the ID1/SoA maps by simply making nailgun ammo boxes randomly spawn as lava nails instead (apply same logic to the multi/plasma ammo). It will unlock those weapons as they are "unlocked" by picking up their ID1 equal and just become useable once you get the proper ammo.
Adding the SoA weapons though - that I need to figure out. I don't want to go the route of making the Lightning/GL being replaced randomly with LaserCannon/Mjolnir/Prox as if I do, it then can ruin DoE as the Multi-Grenade and Plasma Gun are "unlocked" by picking up them. I *can* exclude the randomizing on certain maps though.

So what would be your suggestions for ways to make the SoA weapons available in ID1/DoE? I don't want to go the "it's always here" route by editing the map entities - but rather a randomization. So you can earn it in many different cases but each playthrough will be different.

[golden_boy]

1) Gibing corpses - very basic

We don't do this in RMQ because we figured this would get in the way of the "run and gun" gameplay. Some players might feel obligated to gib every corpse.

Also, unless you do some special magic, will the corpses be solid? That inhibits movement. But I assume you fix this.

2) Kickable gibs -> BUT gibs are gone after 5 seconds. They disappear in a mini gib (blood splat and gone). So gib someone - gibs fly and you can interact with them - if one flys at you and you hit it - you send it flying the other way but it will disappear soon after.

Personally find this cheesy and it might distract players from shooting, but that's only IMO. Gyro on the gibs?

3) QTest/Pre-Release Content - basically alternate versions. Horned Axe Ogre, Nail Ogre, LavaBall Vore, the "Wizard", Vomitus, Explosive Energy Ball Scrag, Dragon and the alternate designs of the Nailgun and SuperNailgun.

good idea.

4) Adding in the removed V_Star.mdl weapon from the DoE expansion (check the .pak it's there)

Ah, is this the grappling hook/morning star? neat.

5) Enforcer gun - kill them they drop it with 5-10 shots. Not gamebreaking as it's weak and only time you get it is first level in ep2-4 - so ammo will run out quickly.

Yup. Nice. Quite a few people seem to want this.

6) Randomization - this is for enemies BIG thing on this. Basically incorperate the removed enemies into the normal game without having to re-do the maps and would effect other custom maps people made.
Example: 60% of time normal Ogre, 20% Nail Ogre, 20% Axe Ogre - Leaving out Multi-Grenade Ogre as he should be expansion exclusive. Then with the Zombie - 75% normal 25% Mummy. Vore - 75% Normal, 25% "Wizard", Tarbaby/Spawn - 80% normal, 20% Vomitus ect. Would add a new feel to Quake, also make it different each playthrough and at time could greatly increase the difficulty randomly or make it alot easier (like if all the Ogre's became the Horned Axe Ogre).

very nice.

7) ALL weapons can kill everything - Big thing. I'd like it but it will change gameplay slightly.

Agree, we do have zombies killable with SSG in RMQ as well, and killable Chthon. It's a shooting game, so I figure this is totally natural. Many mods make zombies fraggable, like Hellsmash.

About putting stuff in existing maps, you can do this via QC, but I guess you know this. Maybe look at RMQ's external.qc to see how we do it - I replace certain monsters in vanilla Quake with RMQ ones, by grabbing their origin and setting spawnflags etc. Perfectly doable.

Can probably do the same for trigger_changelevel, I think there is no need to touch the maps.

About the horned shield ogre, you can take it from the last RMQ demo if you want since that got released now and is now open source.

About adding more weapons, you can add as many as you want by using .items2. Both RMQ and Chapters/Quoth do this, and both have their source available. It's not that hard.

I want to do the whole - Take the Dragon on with the Laser Cannon for SoA, kill Armagon with the Multi-Launchers and Plasma Gun. However adding those to their opposite mission pack (and to id1) is where I am struggling to find a good way.

Pretty sure you can spawn stuff via QC or turn some existing item into a weapon just like the monster replacing I described above. Find a good position for a gun, then löook for the nearest pack of shells and turn that into a weapon via QC (classname). Should work unless the item's origin now makes the weapon fall out of the map. Experiment.

Chain-Lightning-Gun

Alternate fire / toggle for the Shaft? Weapon upgrade?

I look forward to your mod.

[LambentHammerBurst]

1)Wazat made a tut that made the corpses solid but change into non-solid when you touch them. It's done with PlayerPreThink if I recall correctly. He's ironing out a couple bugs, but it's thus far great.
2)The kickable, it is cheesy. I however figured if you make the kick much much much weaker - around 5% tops it'd give the gibs a bit of a more realistic feel. Like you walk through a area filled with gibs - you will shuffle them around instead of booting them across the room. This came to mind after playing a bit of Gears of War 2 (preparing for the Beta - I have a extra code if anyone wants, am wanting about $5 though lol). Gib a enemy and then walk through his gibs, that kinda effect I'd like. As for the Gyro - that would require a engine edit right? (Sorry don't really know what you are meaning by Gyro but I am assuming it's a physics engine change?)
3) See my upcoming document.
4) The morning star *may* be cut. Simply because I am cheating to get the DoE Grappling Hook - getting the 2nd would be tedious. I could possibly find a way to make it a cvar which would simply be client side. Basically if it's 0 it will be the DoE grapple, if 1 it will be the Morning Star. As they are the same, it'd just be a "skin" so to say with a different sound.
5) Yeah after playing Quake for the first time, when I encountered them I was like sweet I'll get a laser gun soon. Sadly didn't happen. Then came SoA - loved the Laser Cannon but it was the Enforcers gun on steroids. It always should of been a weapon available in my opinion as the Enforcers are former humans. Basically "zombified" like the Grunts.
6) See #3
7) Yeah more or less a bonus. Killing zombies with any gun will be possible - but would be easier to just blow up with the grenade. When they are down, you can run on top of them and they won't get up (as the original code does that). So it brings in a new tactic to kill them if you have 2 or more and low on grenades (or want to save them). Shoot 1 down, run on top of him. Shoot the others down and now start unloading on the one you are standing on until he gibs. Repeat the tactic. It will eat up your ammo, but it's doable. Whereas a explosive is just 1 shot - however it is a extra feature. -- Killing Chthon was always my favorite "mod" back from when Quake was released. Yeah took alot of ammo in most of the variations - but it was fun. It's being added but he will be resistant to explosives and nailguns however highly sensitive to Energy weapons. Neturally you won't have the Lightning Gun - however having the Enforcer's gun - that will be possible. Energy weapons I am thinking would be equal to them being Quad. Will kill him effectively - however like I said - you wouldn't have a lightning gun unless you cheated. So it wouldn't be "game breaking". However it'd be nice for custom maps.
For the replacing of monsters via QC. Something I did before in the past. It's great and I would likely be doing it for some cases. I am however more leaning towards the % randomization. So each playthrough will provide different effects and will also apply to downloaded maps.

The weapons:
Presently I am thinking of making the Cells/Rockets/Nails have slight % of becoming Plasma/Multi-Rockets/LavaNails but only on non-DoE maps. I presently disabled the Multi-Grenade Ogre from doing that (boot DoE up and go to E1M2, you will likely encounter a Multi-Grenade Ogre as he will replace one 25% of the time). So it's possible to apply the same logic. So it will then do the randomization on ID1/SoA and any custom maps while keeping the original ammo placement on DoE.
That will bring in the DoE weapons to all modes.
I want the weapons to be available in any map you play (custom included). So randomizing the weapon pickup is the best route.
GL for example: 60% being normal, 25% being Prox, 15% being QTest. The multi doesn't need a pickup as it's earned by picking up the standard GL and becomes usable once you get multi-grenade ammo in which will be available via random replacement. The standard GL will be able to be earned by picking it up OR gibbing a Ogre which is using it (I do have multiple variations of the Ogre planned, a QTest-GL using Ogre is planned - so if you gib him - you will get the QTest GL instead).
The SuperNailgun will sometimes be the Laser Cannon. The Mjolnir sometimes will replace the Lightning Gun but will be something like 15% as the Lightning Gun is required to unlock the Plasmagun and the Lightning Gun too as is will sometimes be the Chain Lightning Gun. However I *could* make it so the PlasmaGun will still be unlocked with the picking up of the Chain Lightning Gun as I intend to make the gun basically look the same with some minor cosmetic differences, and they both have the same Rate of Fire. So having it serve as the whole "Chain Lightning Gun loaded with Plasma becomes the Plasma Gun" (like how it is in DoE except standard lightning gun) makes sense. So if I do that, I can increase the percentage of the Mjolnir spawn to about 20%.

[golden_boy]

Gyro is actually purely a QC library. It can make gibs float in water and stuff.

[LambentHammerBurst]

Ah then that's something I will possibly look into

[LambentHammerBurst]

Here's the "plan" document of the mod.
It presently says how each monster will be put into each mission of Quake.
The Gremlin is one I am not fully happy about - however currently the best option at the moment unless some of you give me better ideas.
The Centoid was another, it's design made it so limiting - it'd only work on the episode start maps of Q1 - in which it'd be too powerful for. So I did find a alternate way of doing so. Let me know what you think.

I didn't want to go the route of editing the maps, I want to go the route of random replacement. Meaning on E1M2 for example the 3 Ogres that are pretty much at the start of the map:
Play 1) Could all be standard Ogres
Play 2) Could be a QTest Nail Ogre, Axe Ogre and a Multi-Grenade Ogre
Play 3) 2 Multi Grenade Ogre's and a Standard Ogre.
ect

Won't say anything more really. Give the file a read and give me some feedback. Anything that has (Possible) means I can easily add it but isn't presently planned.

I want user feedback on this. Q1 SP did start to become TOO familiar - as in knowing that enemy is around the corner and where. This kinda changes that, you could have the whole - "Ah it's a Death Knight around this corner" and when you do - it's instead a "Savage Centoid" (see the file to understand this) or a "Wrath". Changes it up. Since it's random too, it could be a Death Knight one playthrough, Savage Centoid the next and then a Wrath the third. Never know.
However my random replacements may not be ideal. So I'd like to know your input. I tried to match the "theme" of the enemy and the strengths. By theme I am not referring to style of attacks but what style of map the monster is best suited to. The Wrath and Death Knight - they both suit the same maps for example and are close in overall difficulty - so the Wrath works as a nice random replacement for the Death Knight.

[golden_boy]

The Centroid actually works well enough in metal maps, I think, in places where you'd otherwise have a shambler. I have used it like that.

It shoots nails, not lasers, so I don't see what the problem is. But that's just me.

[LambentHammerBurst]

True on that. He does work on the metal maps well - however what enemy would be best to have him replace time to time that'd be a id1 enemy? It'd look out of place to have him appear in a castle map. Why I brought up the idea of my "Savage Centoid".

[R00k]

Gyro is actually purely a QC library. It can make gibs float in water and stuff.

	local vector midorg;
	
	midorg = (self.origin - ((self.mins + self.maxs) * 0.5));
	
	if (pointcontents(midorg) == CONTENT_WATER)
	{
		self.velocity_z = 50;
		self.avelocity = '10 -10 -10';
	}

For the Grappling Hook, you could delimit the usage, but limit the length of the chain?

void () Hook_Check =
{
	local vector vel;
	local float v;

	if ((!self.owner.button0 && self.owner.weapon == IT_HOOK) || (self.owner.deadflag) || (gameover))
	{
		HookVanish ();
		return;
	}
	
	makevectors (self.owner.angles);
	
	vel = self.origin - ( self.owner.origin + (v_up * 16 * (!self.owner.button2)) + (v_forward * 16));

	v = vlen (vel);

	if ( v > 100 )
	{
		self.movetype = MOVETYPE_TOSS;
	}
	else
	{
		if ( v > 200)
		{
			HookVanish();
			return;
		}
	}
	
	if (self)
	{
		self.nextthink = time + sys_ticrate;
		self.think = Hook_Check;
	}
};

in your fire hook code, just change the think/nexthink to

	hook.nextthink 	= time + 0.5;
	hook.think 	= Hook_Check;

you can increase the v > 100 and v > 200 portion to your liking to increase the length of the chain. 100 is very short and would only be usefull for running jumping and hooking the ceiling or that just out of reach doorway...

[LambentHammerBurst]

Very good suggestion R00k. I think that'd be the best option - I'd just make the length part SP only.
Also I came into some issues, I'm no advanced coder and needless to say I got the weapons working when they are selected properly (minus a couple, but those are easily fixed). Issue I am having is weapons are getting incorrect model or the right model is getting applied but it's firing a different weapons attack.
If I sent you my source thus far, think you could take a look at it and help me fix my n00b errors? Dr.ShadowBorg's weapon tut is great but am getting some issues with it.

[Lardarse]

Randomization - this is for enemies BIG thing on this. Basically incorperate the removed enemies into the normal game without having to re-do the maps and would effect other custom maps people made.
Example: 60% of time normal Ogre, 20% Nail Ogre, 20% Axe Ogre - Leaving out Multi-Grenade Ogre as he should be expansion exclusive. Then with the Zombie - 75% normal 25% Mummy. Vore - 75% Normal, 25% "Wizard", Tarbaby/Spawn - 80% normal, 20% Vomitus ect. Would add a new feel to Quake, also make it different each playthrough and at time could greatly increase the difficulty randomly or make it alot easier (like if all the Ogre's became the Horned Axe Ogre).

As someone who has done this before (although not in anything released), I have two things to say about this:

1: Precache every possibility, and then randomize. Otherwise, sooner or later, precache mismatches will bite you on the ass.

2: Make sure that the original monsters are still accessable to mappers. Assuming that, for example, monster_ogre will have a random chance of being a different ogre variant, you will want to make sure that you have a monster_ogre_grenade, monster_ogre_nail, and monster_ogre_axe instead. Monster variants aren't truly drop-in replacements, as the different weapons a monster has changes its effectiveness.

[LambentHammerBurst]

Yeah will be adding the ability via:
monster_force_(name) - so then you can force a standard ogre or even any of it's variants. Did this already so I could test the variants individually. Do know about the random can cause issues. E1M3 for example right at the end before you take the elevator up where you fight the Fiends followed by more or a Shambler depending on difficulty - there's the 2 Ogres on those 2 platforms above.
A Nail and Axe Ogre there are basically useless. Can force it, that may be a project for after I am done all the stuff though. Dr.ShadowBorg is currently ironing out the bugs in the 24 weapon code. He almost got it flawless last night, but encountered a bug that'd be rare for one to encounter - but still very possible due the randomization. If you have all 3 nailguns (NG, QTest and have Lava Ammo to unlock Lava NG) - drain your lava ng ammo, now switch back to QTest - it will fire like the standard nailgun. This same logic applies to other weapon slots. Only happens if you have the slot filled and then one of the weapons that use separate ammo gets drained.