what the fuck

[Baker]

I welcome any and all evolution of understanding.

Everything I need to know about knowledge came from Megatron.

Starscream: "Don't push me, Megatron, my desire for power is as great as yours!"
Megatron: "Power flows to the one who knows how. Desire alone is not enough."

So Megatron is explaining to Star Scream that power and success is an effect, not a cause. Megatron doesn't have power because he leads the Decepticons, he leads the Decepticons because he has strong leadership qualities which results in power.

The 3 part pilot episode of original Transformers cartoon is philosophically awesome. Not just that part ... there's more ...

a) Life doesn't favor losers. The Autobots may desire to be peaceful, but they must man up or Megatron is going to crush them. You may like peace, but you better be willing to fight to get it.

b) Starscream is a nerd. He is intelligent and overestimates himself. And never realizes he does not possess any leadership qualities.

c) Megatron demonstrates leadership by sparing Starscream from a failed mutiny, stating the Decepticon cause is more important than personal grudges. In otherwords, Megatron who is not compassionate is, however, goal oriented.

d) There is part where it looks like Megatron has won, and Optimus Prime is very angry. Optimus Prime isn't very graceful in defeat.

Knowledge, comfort, wealthy, education are important things.

But if you don't have your head in the game, they will make you weak --- in the mind, in spirit and cause your convictions to become misguided.

Natural selection (basically the same thing as evolution) says the weak lose every single time.

You can be knowledgeable and educated, but if you are weak in the mind and in spirit you aren't smart. Weakness isn't rewarded in this world.

Be a Megatron, don't be a Starscream!

(Usually, it takes beer for me to decide to do a post like this. However, I haven't had any beer --- but what got me thinking about this was how I find pampered Ivory Tower Intellectuals repugnant and without vigor. And I think the Starscream comparison fits very well.)

[Davers]

It was probably something that occurred when being translated into European languages.

I think it was first published in Aramaic or Sumerian or similar then it was dragged into Latin then into German, English, Spanish etc.

Name localisation would make sense if you want to increase the attraction of your cult.

Apologies if you are religious, it's not personal. I just think religion should be dead by now and written about only in history books.

Richard Dawkings, The God Delusion.
Good book

[Adam]

Richard Dawkings, The God Delusion.
Good book

I agree, search out Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens too.
I would also recommend Alain De Botton for... reasons.

Religion is a man made wall we built to lean on, built to hold back questions that we didn't know the answers to.
The wall is no longer needed but for a lot of people its still a warm, safe place and they don't want to let it go.
In that way, I don't want to demolish or replace the wall, no, it can stay as a historical monument but I would like us to stop pretending that it still has a purpose.

...

Each term, my wife writes two letters, one for each child that attends primary school. The letters are written so that our children are not forced into religious education. The school is not a religious school, it's a standard state funded one.
And we don't have a problem with a class that teaches about religion from a global & historical viewpoint, that includes all the religions, their beliefs and how they came about.

But unfortunately, our local school has RE lessons that are just about christianity. It is indoctrination and it is paraded as fact.

So we have to write two letters (eventually it will be four), every single term because the schools default position (it would appear, it isn't written down anywhere) is that every child should be christian.

As the thread says, what the fuck?

[Baker]

built to hold back questions that we didn't know the answers to.

Of the dumb stuff I've read on the internet that pretends to be an intellectual comment, that one is a Top 10 contender for dumbest faux intellectual comment ever. What answers do we have to anything that religion sought to fill?

1) Right/wrong? Fail.
2) Greater purpose? Fail.
3) Where everything came from? Fail.
4) Is there something after death? Fail.

Did you actually think that up yourself? I bet you didn't.

A book told you to think it. So you aren't even exercising your own brain, you are just doing what you say religions do, accepting something as true without proof.

[Baker]

Real question we have no idea:

1) A cell membrane can loosely be described as a "soap bubble" that has a tendency to let certain things in. Inside a cell are tons of complicated structures (organelles).

Now how did the first one happen? Maybe one day we will figure it out, but it is very complicated even if you look at the simplest life, which would probably be eukaryote (blue-green algae is a eukaryote).

2) Life on Earth depends on plants. Chlorophyll-A is the backbone of photosynthesis. Chlorophyll is a very complicated organic molecule.

Well -- wait --- organic generally means "no metals" --- and this weird molecule has **METAL** in it.

The magnesium is metal, and it is basically trapped in it.

Look at the molecular structure, note the Mg (magnesium) http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek...l/chlrphyl.gif

So ... given the statistical improbability of chlorophyll -- how did it first form?

3) The Big Bang is a neat and tidy creationist theory. Except ... for the Big Bang to be true ... we need dark energy, dark matter and more matter than we currently have. It also requires big gravitational waves from every direction which should have been discovered by now.

The very powerful James Webb Space Telescope will be launched in 2 years. They hope to look at the beginning of the Universe.

What instead of seeing primordial Big Bang stuff, if they just see more and more stars and galaxies as far as the new telescope's vastly enhanced resolution can see? The Big Bang might actually have to be scrapped and Steady State might need to be revisited. They have already found mega structures in the universe that should take trillions of years to form and a uniform speed for everything we see (also not supposed to happen).

We don't really know much of anything. Not nearly as much as some people think we do.

[MadGypsy]

I believe the answer you are looking for is 42.

hint: HHGttG

[Adam]

Of the dumb stuff I've read on the internet that pretends to be an intellectual comment, that one is a Top 10 contender for dumbest faux intellectual comment ever. What answers do we have to anything that religion sought to fill?

1) Right/wrong? Fail.
2) Greater purpose? Fail.
3) Where everything came from? Fail.
4) Is there something after death? Fail.

Did you actually think that up yourself? I bet you didn't.

A book told you to think it. So you aren't even exercising your own brain, you are just doing what you say religions do, accepting something as true without proof.

I don't understand why, every time we discuss this, you seem to lack the self control to not resort to insulting and name calling.

I get the impression that all the things you accuse me of are your own failings and insecurities.

You float around picking and choosing questions out of a science book to what end? To pretend you know everything? You seem to have some kind of internal conflict, where you talk of science and how it can't prove anything, but then your default mode seems to side with religion that can prove even less. There have been many notable scholars who have lived with this conflict over the ages, it would explain a lot if you do share the same problem.

I don't know everything. I know very little and as you like to observe, that may be what makes you soooo upset, but to answer some of your rant:

Yes, I did write that first paragraph. Whether you think it right or wrong, it is my opinion (admittedly an opinion formed from reading more than one book, but we will get to that later) and hopefully, over time you can build up a resistance to other people not sharing your opinion. I hope so, as anger can severely shorten your lifespan (although I've only read that in textbooks and on the internet, so possibly that's not true either. You know, because words on a page are just someone else's science... uh... I mean, ideas).

So here we go on a wild ride where I will most likely disagree with you, so don't read any further if you're feeling sensitive, or worse still, drinking heavily.

Let's start with the overwhelming issue you like to bring up. What I write is my opinion, which is not to say it is fact, nor do I need to put footnotes to some kind of proof.
Either way, none of the questions that you bring up have been given conclusive answers from religion either. Boy, you were stretching there.

1.Of course we know the difference between right and wrong without religion. I am guessing you know too, unless you are writing this from a prison cell somewhere. That, to me is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard on the internet.

2.We (omg, it's my opinion again) don't have a higher purpose, apologies if that blows your mind or you can't live with that idea, just look away and pretend I never said anything. I will add yet again, religion can't prove any of the claims it makes either.

3. Really, you're going to try and pull that one out? Religion has zero proof of the claims it makes. From dust and from some guy's ribs? Living in a garden with a talking snake? (link to other origin myths). They tell a good story but come on man, we have theories that at least attempt to prove something and none of them are religious. And arguing that creation myths are 'just a myth' is also flawed. 'Here's this book which tells us how to live our lives, but you shouldn't really believe the first bit.' How logical is that?

4.Another unprovable tall story, considering nobody has survived death to tell the tale. I mean you could say that using medical science we have revived people, but nobody said they shook the hand of some creator and if they did would you believe them? I am sorry to say this but what I believe (here I go with another opinion for which I have no proof, and it may sound a little crazy), is that there isn't anything after death. We break down into soil and hopefully feed some other organism. The heaven and hell myths are just that, they were invented as a form of control: 'Be good now, and you will be rewarded after you leave this realm.'

It would be great if this really could be conclusively disproved because then we might have fewer young men (and some women) blowing themselves up due to promises of an idyllic afterlife.

Your last paragraph is weird at best and, I suppose, insulting at worst.
We all learn things from books, hopefully we can read more than one book without making our decision on what is to be believed. I would suggest reading many, as many as you can, then building an opinion from what you have learned from then.

I really wish you the best and hope you can get over your anger. I am really not in this as some kind of competition that can be won, but if you feel you need to be victorious, then fine.

You win.

[MadGypsy]

@Adam - I'm with you for most of what you said but, you are inaccurate in one place.

"'Here's this book which tells us how to live our lives, but you shouldn't really believe the first bit."

The Bible is not a book. It is a library (written by men, translated by men and championed by men) so, yes, you maybe shouldn't believe the first bit and possibly many other bits. Actually you can probably throw the whole thing away cause that library has caused a lot more harm than good. People that believe in the same God can't even agree upon a translation of the scriptures. Not to mention that there are many translations that try to give deeper "good" meaning to scriptures like "dashing your child on the stones" ~Obviously God, didn't mean I should really throw my annoying brat off a cliff ~ Really? Are you really, really sure of that, cause that's exactly what the fuck it says to do. Isn't this the same God that told Abraham to kill his son and let his "chosen" people wander in the desert for 40 years?

I digress. The bible is a library.

For the record. I absolutely believe in God. I also believe in Jesus but, I think that is a conditioning that I will never break. I also believe that I have a personal relationship with God. I avoid the bible and organized religion like the plague...disorganized religion too. Actually, if "you" are trying to tell me anything at all about how and what to believe (spiritually), I can't even hear you and you wont get a second chance. I was raised Catholic til 8 or 9 and then United Pentecostal for about the next decade after that. I've learned everything from doing absolutely nothing but showing up in church once a year to magically appear in heaven to taking every single breath for Jesus. With beliefs so opposite revolving around the same God, I call it all BS.

funny thing - In UP churches generally women only wear long dresses and grow their hair quite long. Only problem, the dresses, although patterned modestly, generally make the women seem almost naked. The thin material hugs their every curve and the super long hair isn't helping. There are all these "Eve's" running around the church and we're supposed to think about Jesus? Seems counter-productive. My buddy told me (when we were like 16) that the only reason he prays in church is because all the women that are gonna lay hands on him . They think they are saving his soul and he's getting a woody!!! Praise Jesus!

[Adam]

@MG
That's fair, I am not trying to convert anyone to anything or personally attack anyone, it's just my opinion encased in a WTF thread.

When I was young, I was picked out to sing for the choir.
I did it because I liked singing. Specifically "All things bright and beautiful" but after a while I couldn't hack it, I wanted to be out playing with my mates, bombing down the street on a dodgy go-cart or seeing how far we could get jumping through neighbours' gardens. It was all good.

[Frost R17]

Please read with an open mind.

Well I fear these sort of arguments may end up here. In my opinion I don't feel religion holding me back like some other people might say. I been to science classes and became fascinated in them and my parents did not have any problems with it. Heck, they even did not have any problems with Halloween.

I understand where people are coming from about religion being a tool to manipulate and control others but it's not such tool, it CAN be a tool. I believe I remember reading a part of the Bible that warns us about "false prophets" who twists religion for that purpose, but it can happen in other ideologies and not just religion. Just look at the Westboro Baptist Church for example, they are lead by hatred against people like the Homosexuals (I don't know the appropriate name for them so forgive me), but all they are doing is giving Christianity a bad name and bad reputation. Besides, Christians are supposed to show kindness to others, even to people with lifestyle choices that Christians disagrees with. Meaning: I can disagree with Homosexuality, but I do not hate because -in my perspective- they are people too that have their own choices in life. As a Christian were supposed let other come to Christianity by their own account and not force it.

My best morale of the story is to respect each other's boundaries by being more understandable without being quick to assume or persecute other people.

[Davers]

The god delusion

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Excellent book, check it out sometime.

[MadGypsy]

There is a big difference between being Christian and being Religious. Christian implies that you are "like Christ" and strive to act in a way that is similar to Christ. Religion is a man-made belief system based on man-made interpretations. To truly be christian you would have to remove religion from your life cause, Christ did not follow or espouse any religion. You can't be "like Christ" if you aren't anything like Christ. Jesus was a leader of men via the spirit of God, not a follower of doctrine.

@Richard Dawkins quote
Amen.

Just remember that the pre-catholics murdered all the christians, then compiled the bible. If I wanted to trick you, murdering everyone that can tell you the truth would be a good place to start. Pretending to uphold the people I just murdered would be the next step. Teaching you the "truth" would be the final one. I get a kick out of people that claim God will preserve his word when God didn't write a single one of them.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In other words, before there was anything there was a god with laws and the power to enforce them. To say God will preserve his word is nothing more than saying God will not change his laws. He apparently gave these laws to Moses and that is the one and only time God wrote anything. I find it ironic that Moses broke the original tablets and then rewrote them... first deception? I'd love to see a comparison between the first set of tablets and the copies.

My father and I argued the bible for about 20 years. His argument was something like "Regardless of how much of the bible MAY be bullshit, the teachings of Jesus are undeniably inspired by God." My argument was basically "The bible tells you not to pray to anything but God and chapters later we are supposed to pray in the name of a man. Jesus' words are only inspired by God if Jesus ever existed, of which nobody can prove. Satan's biggest trick is deceit. It seems to me that the biggest deception ever would be to have you praying to some God in the name of a man because some "wholesome" book (written/translated/compiled by men) told you to. Not to mention that the main key to heaven is to simply believe in Jesus... Accept Jesus (a man) as your lord and savior but don't put false idols before god..? Wha?"

If the bible was truly inspired by an all knowing, all powerful being it would be really fucking clear as to it's translation and it wouldn't contradict itself anywhere. Room for interpretation and contradiction are the devils tools.

[Frost R17]

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Excellent book, check it out sometime.

Well Richard Dawkins is an Atheist and, to me, is quite obvious. Most Atheists I've seen so far has nothing nice to say about Religion (mostly Christianity) and this is such example. Of course it is also obvious for me, as a Christian, to disagree with him and other Atheists when it comes to this subject. However, what I'm trying to point out is respecting and understanding each others' boundaries and it doesn't matter if we believe or don't believe in God. Unfortunately this still keeps on going. I believe that Atheists who talk down to Theists for believing a God or Supreme Being are probably just bad eggs in Atheism, just like Religion having their fair share of bad eggs. Besides, aren't Atheists generally people who don't believe in God or any other deity? If so, then Atheists who argue Theists that push their beliefs against other people are doing the exact same thing. Plus Atheists dismisses Theists for using the Bible or any other book or scripture to point out their arguments, yet ironically Atheists use Bible or any other book or scripture to point out their arguments.

I'm sorry but I don't see how Richard Dawkins quote is a fair, justified statement. It almost seems like a bash against Religion statement, even the title itself sounds like it. Plus how would you know if he and Atheists like him are right if the question of God's existence is beyond our ability to answer? Of course, same thing can be said for Theists because neither side can easily answer the question. So best thing to do is simple: believe what we want to believe and respect others opinion without judging each other unfairly. I'm not bashing Atheism nor I hate them, but I can't give any respect to any Atheist who judges unfairly as I can't give respect to other people for mistreating others.

Like what I said in my conclusion before this post is that it is best to be respectful and understanding to each others' boundaries. Besides, we're all just people; no one is better than the other.

[MadGypsy]

I'm sort of in the crossfire because I am not an Atheist but I am not Religious either. I am actually a LeVeyan Satanist that firmly believes in God. I have christian tendencies but, choose to mostly follow myself. That being said, regarding Dawkins quote...

1) jealous and proud of it - the bible claims that God admits his jealousy.
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God

2) a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak - according to the bible, if you do not live your life exactly as God has told you to you will burn in the lake of fire and brimstone where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for all of eternity.

Nothing absolutely ridiculous about that, right? Screw up your approx 72 years and spend eternity in hell

3)a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser - Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah's flood, nuff said

4)a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” - I'm not wasting my life hitting all those points so I will just hit a few.

“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
“For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.” Romans 1:26-28
“But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” Mark 10:6-9
“The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.” 1 Timothy 1:10-11
“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.” Leviticus 20:13
“You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.” Leviticus 18:22
“The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth and said, “My lords, please turn aside to your servant’s house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the town square.” But he pressed them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.” Genesis 19:1-5

It's almost like there are 2 Gods in the bible. The all loving, forgiving one that asks only that you believe to receive the kingdom of heaven and the bloodthirsty hateful one that will fucking smite you and condemn you to an eternity of torture. I find all of this ridiculous. Supposedly god is all knowing. OK, then that means he knew where every one of us was going to end up before we were ever born. That means that a number of us were literally born to die for eternity, it was our fate from the beginning. Regardless of your choice, God already knew what choice you would make and therefore you never really had a choice in the first place.

This can be coupled with another of my opinions. Why would an all powerful, all knowing god need/want the praise of humans? Does our all powerful god have validation/confidence issues or something? Why must the only 2 choices be heaven/hell? To believe that the best that the most ultimate supreme being can concoct is an ultimate punishment/ ultimate reward system is silly to me. Burn for all of eternity? What is this, the dark ages? Even life prison sentences have an expiration date and your time isn't spent in constant torture. So, what, humans are more loving than god? Humans will put you in a prison for a time, feed you, house you and even give you opportunities to redeem yourself. God however just throws you in a fire pit and calls it a day? Why does there have to be an ultimate punishment system at all? Wouldn't not making it to heaven be an incredible punishment in itself? This is why the bible is basically junk. I'd like to believe my God is more advanced than an unrealistic brat.

The 10 commandments in themself are little more than pandering to extreme ignorance. Who amongst us needed a bible to know killing, stealing and sleeping with somebody's wife is wrong? I mean really, how incredibly dense the people of Moses time must have been to not find these things self evident. In contrast, more people have been raped and killed in the name of god than any other name.

If you believe there is a god and you want to live your life for him/her, throw all your dogma books in the garbage and form a spiritual relationship directly with God. If God is the word and god is in you then the word is in you, not in any fucking books. Especially not a book that forms the basis for like 20 different religions all claiming to follow the same god.

Did you know the word "church" is derived from Circe? Circe was an enchantress so, church is basically "house of the enchantress". And what happens in a church... you are told what to believe. You have been conditioned that a church is a place of God and a preacher is a man of God. Most people walk into a church with their guard and reason completely dropped. How convenient. There are buildings all over the world that will tell you conflicting things on how to get to heaven and "you" are ready to receive that information without question. Most people choose churches based on their ability to identify with the beliefs and rituals. Take a hardcore catholic of 30 or so years and stick them in a United Pentecostal Church. Aside from the fact that only the most daft catholic wont realize that what is being preached is contrary to their beliefs (albeit for the same god) the amplified energy and environment would be sufficient to make that person very uncomfortable. Even if that catholic could prove that catholicism will send them to hell they would probably return to the catholic church out of familiarity and ability to accept their environment.

I'm not saying catholicism will send you to hell. I don't believe in hell. To believe in hell is to believe my god is a complete asshole.

[Davers]

If you choose to believe in fairy tales, by all means go for it.
You can quote the bible all day long, i stand on the side of evidence and science.

"keeping the garden hose ready for those summer jehovas.." lol