What the hell is going on here!!!

[DeathMaster]

GOD HAS SPOKEN

THIS IS GOD SPEAKING

[Focalor]

People actually believe this nonsense? I'm a proud white american and any other race has nithing to do with it. Europe has nothing to do with it. Conversely, black pride... regarding culture... what culture? At whhat point in your life have you done ANYTHING africans do? Ive been raised around black folks my entire life and It is 100% about turning everything white...black. If you had hair, Jeremy... would you get it did? Those are all english words but for some reason (definitely southern) blacks want to talk and dress like they still live on a plantation. Act equal and you'll be equal. My second uncle is black and he was the mayor here, like forever. He talked and acted like someone that had their shit together and he was treated accordingly.

I think the point was made already, but if it wasn't, allow me to make it now: That blacks in this country don't really have a solid connection to their culture and many other things involving their heritage entirely due to the institution of slavery which abducted them against their will and forcibly disconnected them from the opportunity to know their own culture. When that kinda shit happens to someone... they tend to think it sucks. A lot.

As far as "act equal and you'll be treated equal"... I'm not black, but if I were, that would probably sound to me like you're trying to say, "Act white and you'll be treated as good as whites.", and that notion would probably piss me off if I were black. But I do understand where the underlying sentiment in that statement comes from. And personally, I like to phrase it differently so that it doesn't involve race or racial inequality at all, yet still applies to ALL people:

"Don't act like an asshole, and you won't be treated like an asshole."

When you say it that way, it can applied universally to all things, all situations, and all people. Because nobody likes an asshole no matter what color they are, or what religion they are, or even... how big her tits are. I'm definitely a tit-man, but I'm sorry honey, even the bestest looking gunboats on a straight up 10 of a woman ain't gonna make me overlook the fact that she's a total broomstick riding bitch who flew outta Satan's butthole on an infernal beer fart. PACK YOUR SHIT AND GET THE FUCK OUTTA MY HOUSE, WOMAN!

I forget which comedian said it, but they made a really good point. That when God handed over the 10 Commandments to Noah or Moses or whoever who was in that particular chapter of the comic book I was reading once... wink, wink,... that God made it WAY too complicated. The first commandment, "No other gods before me", maybe leave that one alone. But the rest of them talking about killing and coveting and lying and everything else, he could've just squeezed those all into one and said "Don't be an asshole." But I guess he couldn't since he already told them all to kill homosexuals, which is kind of an asshole thing to do.

Anyway... (cuz now I'm rambling)

damn dude, you sound pretty bitter about the whole deal lol

LOL! LOL! HAHAHA! LOL! WE'RE LAUGHING OUT LOUD CUZ IT'S FUCKING FUNNY!

I'm really glad you made this statement, because it helps exemplify an important point. Nothing I said was "bitter." I simply denounced the idea of creationism because I see it to be a truly stupid or uneducated idea. But because you hold that idea sacred, you weren't gonna let it slide, were you? And you already know that another part of Christian dogma instructs you to "turn the other cheek." But... human psychology prevails, and thus... out comes the passive aggressive LOL's attempting to make my rational arguments seem irrational simply because I'm apparently "bitter" and therefore my arguments must be entirely emotionally charged and can be easily discounted as the ravings of an angry man who's still butthurt because mommy made him go to church when he was 5.

And this is why I disapprove of religion in general. It doesn't matter which one you pick, they all seem to share the same characteristics when you observe them closely. They all have a dogma proclaiming their own elitism. The Christians are better because they aren't sinners. The Muslims are better because they aren't infidels. The Buddhists are better because they're enlightened. The Satanists are better because they were just born that way. Yeah well... Nazi's were better because they were Aryans. And they still got their asses kicked. So, it seems to me like everyone just merely "thinks" they're better than someone else even though the measurable data says otherwise.

So am I actually bitter? Yes and no. And NOW you can finally correctly claim that I do indeed sound bitter. You're welcome.

I can't help but have the thought that maybe mankind could be much more technologically advanced right now had it not been for the hindrance and obstruction of religion. The most popular ones seem to have lots of rules, and multiples of multiples of individual interpretations of those rules, which often times has led to violent conflicts between groups of people. These rules and interpretations of them seem to have always done more to divide and destruct civilizations than to help them flourish and cooperate productively with other people. Hell, even take the Amish for example. They refuse to use electricity. It's pretty safe to say that the Amish will never explore outer space or invent anything cool. And life would suck right now if they were running things. And maybe if it hadn't been for Constantine making Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire, they'd still be running shit, Europe wouldn't have gone through the blank period of nothingness known as the Dark Ages, and we'd be able to travel vast distances to explore the universe in a reasonable amount of time right now.

I'm bitter that religion has held mankind back from our full potential for so long. But as I said, "Yes... and NO." No, because... who cares. It DIDN'T happen that way. The way things are is the only way things can be, "The best of all possible worlds" as Voltaire often said it. We can't travel to these theorized parallel dimensions and observe the differences, so why bother worrying about them. Maybe this is the ONLY way it could possibly be. Maybe we've had to endure through the small-mindedness of religions in order to learn to evolve beyond it intellectually.

My biggest regret when I die will certainly NOT be that I didn't believe in Jesus and will thus be cast into a lake of fire to burn for all eternity. My biggest regret will be that I won't be here to see what amazing things mankind will do 10,000 years from now (if we haven't killed ourselves accidentally somehow e.g. nuclear winter, famine, Kardashian induced suicidal depressiveness).

Oh yeah, also, KILL THE WHITE PEOPLE!!!!

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/a7f...ople-from-nino

[Mugwump]

IF THE AMISH RULED THE WORLD WE WOULD HAVE NO QUAKE!!! That's reason enough to deserve Hell for all eternity.

Joking aside, in this last post it seems like you read my mind... except regarding buddhists. Their "religion" (which is not exactly one in fact) promotes humility as one of its most important values, and each and every buddhist I've ever heard talking never came off as feeling superior, contrary to many christians.

[nahuel]

IF THE AMISH RULED THE WORLD WE WOULD HAVE NO QUAKE!!!

Not amish but quakers

[Mugwump]

Ha ha, nice! Coincidentally, I'd like at some point to release a map that I would call Quaker Oats.

[Dutch]

Faith without works is dead. And a god without proof is dead.

your tone here is bitter. i'm not sure what else to call it. and your last post was a complete ramble. also an indication of emotionally driven bitterness. you claim the opposite, but you're not proving otherwise.

I simply denounced the idea of creationism because I see it to be a truly stupid or uneducated idea. But because you hold that idea sacred, you weren't gonna let it slide, were you?

i could care less what you believe. i'm not the greatest christian in this regard. i haven't done anything you haven't done in this thread: state an opinion.

But... human psychology prevails, and thus... out comes the passive aggressive LOL's attempting to make my rational arguments seem irrational simply because I'm apparently "bitter" and therefore my arguments must be entirely emotionally charged and can be easily discounted as the ravings of an angry man who's still butthurt because mommy made him go to church when he was 5.

what the hell is all this? the 'lol' was to lighten the conversation so i wouldn't sound like a dick, keep it civil and avoid this crap. you're clearly fishing for a confrontation.

one thing i've learned about atheists: an alarming majority of them act like assholes. i'm sure a totally atheist world would live in perfect harmony and shoot for the stars! (that's sarcasm by the way, in case you were going to use your human psychology thing on me again).

before i call it a night, here's some food for thought: what's your gain in this? a Christian's goal is to spread the Word. an atheist has no word to spread, because they don't believe in God. there's no driving motivator to post your belief other than to spit noise. i imagine it's more to do with the fact that my belief angers you. you have to jump in and try your damndest to discredit. that's tough, bro.

it always intrigued me how aethiests scramble out of the woodwork when christianity is mentioned.

anyways, this here's the end of the conversation. i'd have more to show after roping the wind than engaging in this any longer. take 'er easy

[Mugwump]

your tone here is bitter. i'm not sure what else to call it. and your last post was a complete ramble. also an indication of emotionally driven bitterness.

I honestly haven't the slightest idea how you can possibly infer that from his words. It's only a statement of fact regarding the uselessness of blind faith without proof to the people for whom it's not good enough. Faith doesn't (or at least shouldn't) presuppose abdicating reason, but all too often it's exactly what we can witness day in day out.

the 'lol' was to lighten the conversation so i wouldn't sound like a dick

Well you missed the mark here, because it's precisely these 3 letters that made you look a bit like one.

one thing i've learned about atheists: an alarming majority of them act like assholes.

Funny, I've had the exact same experience with believers, whereas most atheists I know are perfectly decent people. Where the hell do you find your atheists?

an atheist has no word to spread

Wrong. Atheists have one word to spread: think.

there's no driving motivator to post your belief other than to spit noise.

The driving motivator in talking to believers is to help them remove their self-inflicted blinders and finally think for themselves instead of allowing their lives to be ruled by an outdated novel.

you have to jump in and try your damndest to discredit.

Rest assured that we don't have to do anything, your book discredits itself all by its lonesome with all its inconsistencies and self-contradictions.

it always intrigued me how aethiests scramble out of the woodwork when christianity is mentioned.

Again, the same can be said about believers in atheist and/or scientific topics, and they're usually much more vehement, disrespectful and less collected than we are.

anyways, this here's the end of the conversation

Typical. When confronted with reason, plugging their ears shouting "la la la la la la la" is a trademark believer's move.

[DeathMaster]

I never understood why modern atheism is full of 15 year-old assholes who specifically target the concepts of Christianity because they decided they're going to crush the dreams of some holy roller today that refer to themselves as "rationalists." Most people I know who are atheist are level-headed and can at least hold somewhat of a rational discussion, being critical but not denying discussion because "you're all just lambs to the slaughter!", but this is just making you guys seem like brittle, moldy assholes that haven't been cleaned out since they saw their first Slayer album. Jesus, just because you guys don't believe in the concept of a God doesn't mean you have to be a flat-out dick to everyone.

You're not really helping the situation either, Dutch.

IDK, it's too early for this shit, I need to sleep.

[nahuel]

I never understood why modern atheism is full of 15 year-old assholes who specifically target the concepts of Christianity because they decided they're going to crush the dreams of some holy roller today that refer to themselves as "rationalists."

Because internet, richard dawkins (so memes) and message board stuff.



Science is not responsible for studying the concept of GOD , it is out of reach. Being atheist does not make you more thoughtful or more critical.
The only way to prove that a person is intelligent , rational or scientific-critical is through scientific discoveries . There are many atheists and religious scientists , so be religious or believer proves nothing.

Generalizing about this is a real idiocy.


Have a nice day

[Mugwump]

I spoke of christianity because it is Dutch's base of reference and what the discussion revolved around. My words hold true with any confession, with the notable exception of buddhism. Don't try to put the blame on me here.

As for my age, I don't know how it should be of your concern but you can add almost twice that number to it. Also, I don't need your insults, thank you.

Denying discussion? Who did unilaterally declare the discussion over? Hint: it starts with a D.

How is it being a dick (again, please shove your insult up your body part where the sun don't shine) to try to help people?

[nahuel]

to try to help people?

Hello bfg. Sorry for this. this is just my opinion.

The key lies in two questions :
-The subjectivity
- What do you consider "help"

We go with the first point. Religious belief is totally subjective , does not fall in any way tangency with the world " objective " because intrapersonal experiences can not be shared. There are too many variables ( almost infinite ) in every human mind for you to understand behaviors , imagine about personal beliefs !!
The religious mentality will always be a pillar of the religious people . And believe me , there are a lot of people very happy with it.


about the "help". Many people with destroyed lives have been helped in many ways: turning some atheists and others becoming religious.
Each person needs a different formula . Religious "enlightenment" can greatly help many people.to believe that all religious are unhappy sheep victims of ignorance is like thinking that people are unhappy because playing CALL OF DUTY instead play quake.
We will always have the thought " my way of life , thinking , is the most appropriate",but this is totally ridiculous. I think that there are universal truths to be happy and full ( be empathetic , not harm others , be respectful etc ... ) but these are independent to religion or to atheism. This is what Goleman calls as " emotional intelligence" ( something really simple to understand ).You can never help others not being empathetic and just thinking that you have the absolute truth about religion or God. Just because religion or God are constructs to support many people. Maybe they are real or not, this is not the key.
And whenever you give your help, make sure the other person has requested for your help . That's the key.

[Mugwump]

Sorry for this.

It's OK, I was actually replying to DeathMaster. Your post got in between while I was typing mine.

And believe me , there are a lot of people very happy with it.

That's what I find the most saddening, that so many people would be content with so little critical thinking.

to believe that all religious are unhappy sheep victims of ignorance

I never said that. And belief is precisely what this is about. Us atheists avoid beliefs. We know or we don't know, but we don't allow ourselves to risk being fooled by any belief, should it be in a god or any other matter. We certainly don't have all the answers yet and there are many that we'll never get, but seeking the truth is far better IMHO than declaring that your fantasy book is it without looking further. Belief is the easy way out and I could never condone that.

And whenever you give your help, make sure the other person has requested for your help . That's the key.

So if you see someone clinging to the edge of a precipice but he doesn't ask for help, you'll let him fall to his death?

[Focalor]

what the hell is all this? the 'lol' was to lighten the conversation so i wouldn't sound like a dick, keep it civil and avoid this crap. you're clearly fishing for a confrontation.

Oh sure. "CLEARLY." What's pretty clear is that if you scroll back, I never quoted you or addressed you directly until you quoted and addressed me directly. The mean moody-asssed motherfucker atheist didn't come flying balls-first at you with daggers. The only thing I poked fun at was the "idea" of creationism, because... there's no other way to put it, the idea is simply stupid and ridiculous in my opinion. From all the data we have available right now, creationism is not as much of a "belief" anymore as much as it is a "disbelief" of scientific discoveries that one can see with their own eyes.

Bow out gracefully. Doesn't matter. It isn't gonna make me stop talking about how ridiculous the idea of creationism is. It isn't gonna make me not wonder why you were thorough enough to address my comment about the holy bible not mentioning dinosaurs, yet not quite so thorough as to address my comment about the holy bible calling for the execution of homosexuals. I don't blame you. These days no one wants to touch that shit with a ten foot pole. But in that regard, Christians aren't the only one's with that hateful edict. It's in the Torah, so the jews have it too. It's part of Islam as well. And again, it's the kind of thing that religions tend to do (from my observations) that does more to divide and deconstruct a society of people than to build them up and make them stronger. The identification of enemies of a god. When taken to the extreme, it never fails to become "WE MUST KILL AND DOMINATE THEM AT ANY COST!"

When I said...

Faith without works is dead. And a god without proof is dead.

...You missed the point of that statement. I don't know why. Maybe you decided I was just being a "bitter asshole" and that the matter required no further investigation or critical thought. Nonetheless, I'll explain.

When the holy bible makes the statement that "Faith without works is dead.", it is in essence saying that works are clear evidence of the existence of a persons faith. At the core of that phrase, it is the proclaiming the universal truth that "A thing without proof of that things existence is not a thing." By saying that "Faith without works is dead.", and following it with, "A god without proof is dead.", I was attempting to make the connection that the authors of the holy bible were rational enough to apply logic to the question of the existence of ones faith in God, and yet they were unwilling to be rational enough to apply that same logic to the question of the existence of the god that their faith is placed within.

One thing I will NOT say is that ALL Christian principals are detestable. On the contrary, from what I've read, Jesus Christ seemed like kind of a cool dude. His whole stance of "Be a really swell guy and help your neighbor." was pretty cool. The wording of "LOVE your neighbor as yourself." was a little weird, because it seems to disregard any thoughts at all of mankinds natural inclinations towards self-preservation, but... whatever. If someone wants to be a swell guy to someone else just because, why should I complain?

And that's kinda-sorta precisely why I mentioned the old testament edict to execute homosexuals. A "swell dude" isn't gonna go around killing people for shit that doesn't personally effect anyone else in a measurable negative way. Sure, maybe the other guy taking it up his ass tends get some butthole redness from the experience, but it doesn't really change the lives of everyone living around him if he wants to participate in such activities in the privacy of his own home. So many things about the holy bible presents incongruities both to itself and to reality. It's self proclaimed infallibility is not readily apparent to me.

[Mugwump]

@Focalor Again, you speak my mind.

[nahuel]

That's what I find the most saddening, that so many people would be content with so little critical thinking.

Believe me there are many people happy with that (not just Internet discussions like us). Including many scientists who really contribute to the world of knowledge and objective thinking.

I never said that. And belief is precisely what this is about. Us atheists avoid beliefs.

You will hold beliefs even if you do not want. most of human knowledge is based on presuppositions. you will always have them, always. Even "prejudices" that you were not even born. Even the sacrosanct science is based on these presuppositions.

We know or we don't know, but we don't allow ourselves to risk being fooled by any belief, should it be in a god or any other matter

Curious. That contradicts you. Atheists know that god does not exist. IF you "know" or "do nt know" talking about god, you would be agnostic.

So if you see someone clinging to the edge of a precipice but he doesn't ask for help, you'll let him fall to his death?

You are not helping anyone of the edge of a precipice.
to use some extreme examples is a fallacy

I spoke about objetive situations
if you compare "save religion" with "save of a edge of a precipice" you're not being critical.