FUCK my ISP

[H1CC]

Capitalism is Socialism applied the other way around, you idiots!

There's a general pereceptive bias as to the center of the spectrum between socialism and capitalism: What one sees as being "capitalism", is actually "mixed capitalism", and what one sees as being "mixed capitalism", is actually "socialism".
Socialism is literally the economic and ideological philosophy of Communism applied to an economic system, where you try to have the upsides of Communism without too many of the downsides of Capitalism-- and in a highly capitalist-side "mixed capitalism" society like Singapore it's the same thing the other way around: try to have as many as possible of the upsides of Capitalism, despite never being fully free of the downsides of Communism's side of the spectrum.


I won't try to argue on experience, because I don't have much experience, but I think I know what's going on here...
You guys both want the same thing, you're just arguing for it from opposite relative standpoints!
bfg666, you vouch for "Socialism" because you don't want corporate cronyism/monopolism to be the end result of people's ability to make a living off of hard work & ingenuity, and you're tired of seeing Capitalism end the same way, the same "disease" with it!
MadGypsy, Dutch, Focalor even, you vouch for "Capitalism" because you don't want excessive unionization/corruption to be the end result when people who honestly want to perform well and be rewarded for it do so, albeit not not necessarily not having a problem with it when their 'hard work' and 'ingenity' is not as fairly rewarded for them as it is for others becaues of where they started from economically, and you're tired of seeing Socialism end the same way, the same "disease" with it!
You know what the disease is?
It's that we've all got mouths to feed, that's what it is!
Of course there are fundamental differences between the opposite extremes' philosphies, but the points you are arguing about are the parts you actually want the same thing on, is what I'm saying.
Why don't you guys each individually figure out what you would want in the economic system of a theoretical society outside of the known history of the universe, in a world and culture very much like our own, without the prior knowledge of the "ideologies" and the "isms" of ours, and when you're done figuring out the details of the mechanics, then apply that back to our real world-- I'll bet you that then you'd all wind up with the same thing!


I pay $50 a month, total, for the wired cable internet connection runnging into my apartment, and it, too, has 15 Megabit per second download speed and 1 Megabit per second upload speed. It's the same deal as in the OP here but there's an additional $10 charge for renting a router from them. I did go and buy a switch from Amazon so I wouldn't be renting it from them, but when I unpacked it I found out it had only one cat-5 port, whereas the one I've been provided has 4, and I need at least 2.
Also, I said specifically that I wanted a wired connection, not a WiFi connection, and I know I got what I asked for 'cause when I go into the router control panel in a web browser, go to WiFi settings, and turn on WiFI, it'll broadcast the network name for like 3 seconds before it automatically shuts itself off and then I can't connect to my own WiFi, and it's entirely possible that when I had it installed, there was a verbal misunderstanding wherein you can get WiFi automatically as well whenever you get wired cable internet, and I was so insistent on making sure the guy understood which that they thought I meant only, so now I'm paying the same as one would to have both and only getting just the wired cable internect connection... either due to the cable people on the other end of the line there taking advantage of said verbal misunderstanding... or maybe it was just because of the guy's thick accent where I could understand him just fine but he may or may not have been too familiar with my English (and I liked that guy, dammit).


I don't blame "corporate cronyism" for that. For what? For potentially having been swindled by a smooth-talking British-Russianese stutterer?
Nor do I go on the opposite side of the political spectrum. Over what? For potentially having been tragically misinterpreted because we're too 'politically correct' to rate someone's performance down for having a foreign accent, when said foreign accept, is clearly not what was causing communication problems, when I was the one who had to keep clarifying the phrasing of what I just said to him, obviously implicating me and my emotional problems in still "not knowing how to talk to people" after all these years?


I blame myself for not being more well-informed beforehand, and being too lazy to go to the TWC website and demand they explain to me the exact, specific terms of our arrangement out of said suspicions.
And it's not often that I find myself the only one who's not having a 'victim complex' about things.
But I ain't 'being hard on myself' either, 'cause honestly, it's not that big of an issue for me.
I mean, it's not like I'm not already paying $40 a month-- $43.50 after tax-- for my phone service. I switched from Sprint to T-Mobile solely because nobody else had a 'data plan' that offered less features above the basic functions of a smartphone-- fucking calling people on the phone. And I barely 'talk' and 'text' in my Daily Life as it is.


Davers has the right idea, though, this thread was literally only about griping about how absurd cable internet prices are nowadays-- instead of arguing online about social ideology you should be organizing a boycott of AT&T U-verse (or in my case, Time Warner Cable Internet). But you can't. Because 'protesting' doesn't mean anything anymore and nobody in their right mind is going to prioritize 'real social change' over being able to enjoy wasting time all day on the internet.
What once was legitimate ideology and progress upon it in the form of what rose out of the Haight-Ashbury Counterculture in the 1960's has been reduced over time to LSD and cultural stereotypes. But I shouldn't be the one complaining, nor should you guys. Somewhere out there right now, there is someone slowly and painfully losing their mind to deliberete social isolation being locked in a cold cell 23 of 24 hours a day, in a Supermax Prison, where it's literally only Solitary Confinement, and "worrying about things that shouldn't really be that big of an issue to you" quickly becomes your only remaining rational thought process... and then who's going to complain about the "unfairly taxing cost" of "your only way to get" basic "functionality in your housing unit" for "entertainment and social interaction"?
"Redistribution of wealth"?
More like redistribution of where and when people give a Damn.


I think Satanism is the best economic philosophy at this point.
At least Satanism encourages the importance of the individual doing a better job of staying well-informed, not being fucking intellectually lazy in continuing to learn & grow well beyond the scope of Academia and Politics, not sharing your opinion with someone who doesn't ask for it, and yet not being unwilling to take risks if you still, in your spare time, want to work towards changing how the system works.

[DeathMaster]

Here's my economic philosophy: I don't give a shit.

People constantly whine and complain about whatever economic system they do or don't have because shit always looks better on the other side of the fence. Let me ask you something: do you enjoy your current position in life? Are you happy with your current economic state? If not, sack up and do something about it. You aren't rotting in some prison cell, you aren't living off the streets, you don't have any need to protest right now because you're earning enough money to get by. The only reason people aren't climbing ahead in whatever system they have is that they aren't seizing economic opportunities that can get them where they need to be. Unless you're somewhere like Venezuela or Cuba where everything is shit, you have no right to complain about a system that you aren't taking advantage of. That goes for everyone, by the way.

[Baker]

People when left to their own devices will create false gods to rule over them.

Everyone decides Windows is best: Monopoly. Now Windows 10 shoves ads and spyware on you. Like you are going to switch ...

Everyone decides Google Chrome is best browser: Monopoly. Spys on you, tracks you. Isn't even an open source browser.

Everyone decides they like Facebook or LinkedIn: Exploits your personal information to death. Probably the CIA or the NSA use Facebook to build profiles on you, haha.

Capitalism's main flaw is the consumer giving the supplier too much power.

Government's role must be to mitigate that.

Getting real hard when corporate money is what buys politicians and the difference between government and corporations starts to blur.

One school of thought isn't that either capitalism or socialism wins, but some sort of sick corporatism economic system.

Consumer's worst enemy is self. Don't like AT&T, then cancel them. AT&T sucks. You'll probably discover AT&T at one point in time ask you to approve a $150 cancellation free. You probably said "Yes".

[xaGe]

News flash you just described TW's basic cable Internet package. With it the only thing you can count on is the price to continue to increase, but not much else.

[Dutch]

@decide what I want in a theoretical society

I want to do my own thing and be left alone. I don't want to pay for anyone else, and I don't want anyone else to pay for me, unless they are close friends/family, in which case we got each other's backs. H1CC, you brought up a couple valid points, and so did Baker, and it shows the issue is not so cut and paste as "capitalism vs socialism". I can get on board with the "don't let the pendulum swing too far the other way" idea.

Here's what I percieve to be the big issue: pure socialism grants the govt too much power. Pure capitalism grants big corporations too much power (for the reasons Baker stated). Common sense regulations that don't restrict the free market to an unneccesary degree is where we need to be. What would be a good term for that? "Moral Capitalism?" I don't know, but I do know in a capitalist-leaning society I typically choose who I give my money to, unlike in a socialist-leaning country, where it gets put in a big collective pool of money to fund a multitude of govt programs I don't support (and yes, I realize that's happening in this very country right now, so Focalor is right about us having some socialist tendencies). Taxes should go towards infrastructure, defense, and other relatively non-political things. If that were the case, the likelihood of us being in debt right now would probably be substantially lower.

[Focalor]

Unions ... enable lazy workmanship

I disagree. I've been both a union and non-union pipefitter. All the guys I worked with in the union, I'd trust them to make a good quality weld on a pipe in a really tight nearly-impossible-to-reach spot where the job HAD to be done right the first time. But I've worked with a few non-union "welders" (I use the quotes to denote that THEY call themselves welders, I just call them piss poor excuses for welders) who really had no business making welds on anything other than flat steel. My point being that with union labor, you tend to get better quality work. Doesn't mean that non-union pipefitters won't get the job done just as well, but unions tend to require more skill certifications of their members.

Everyone decides they like Facebook or LinkedIn: Exploits your personal information to death. Probably the CIA or the NSA use Facebook to build profiles on you, haha.

They ABSOLUTELY do, and someone somewhere even SAID SO from the beginning. Of course... it didn't make major news, because at the time nobody knew what the fuck Facebook was. And it wasn't exactly that "everyone" decided they liked Facebook. Government officials were told to start Facebook and Twitter accounts, corporations and companies were encouraged to do so as well, and the people followed like rats to the pied piper.

I never joined the phenomenon. I knew from the minute it started it was just another way for someone to spy on you, or more accurately, a way for YOU to VOLUNTEER to be spied on. People post pics of the god damn sandwich they ate, or how their grandma farted at the dinner table or whatever else. WHO FUCKING CARES! Anybody who really NEEDS to know details about you, they should just call or stop by for a visit to ask you in person. The rest of it... it's just a way for women to sit around and be judgmental about all the shit you post, and a way for "The Man" to get you to volunteer to keep a daily diary that they can look at any time they want.

No, seriously, that's what my old lady does constantly. She stays glued to her phone, flipping through Facebook for centuries at a time, and every once in a while she'll look up and start bitching to me about what someone she doesn't like said on there. And every time I gotta tell her, I DON'T FUCKING CARE, WOMAN!

[Mugwump]

Did you skip over our examples, or are you avoiding them on purpose?

No, you guys just published more posts while I was typing mine.

You're regurgitating leftist talking points

I don't regurgitate anything, I have a mind of my own, thank you very much. My conclusions are the result of watching the world. The fact that they coincide with those of others doesn't make me a sheep.

We have offered logical explanations of why socialist ideals do not work, that are grounded in reality and common sense.

Oh, you mean logical like that analogy with education? That was ridiculous at best and I don't see how you can seriously compare one with the other.

for me to stay entertained.

I know the trend lately is to turn politics into a TV show but it's not entertainment to me.

You think quake came about under socialist pretensions? "Hey guys, let's make a 3d game that redefines the genre and pushes the limits so everyone can have it for free and play it together!

Actually, that's pretty much what they did. Or did you forget that Quake was originally released as shareware? One could perfectly play Quake legally for free. And in turn, this method ensured a wide distribution of the game, leading to massive sales in the end.

This only applies to nations with a lazy ass work force (which, ironically, only happens in socialist nations...see a correlation?).

That is simply not true and I expected better from you than this. What were you saying again about regurgitating propaganda? A piece of advice: when you accuse someone of something, you better not get caught doing that very same thing yourself...

If my company doesn't offer me the benefits I want, guess what? I walk out and find a better job, one that will give me those benefits.

Lucky you, to live in a country so devoid of unemployment that you can safely boss your boss around...

Hard workers get the benefits. Hard workers get the money. Hard workers get the grades. Hard workers get the final say. Hard workers become the leaders. Hard workers get what they deserve: MORE than the others, because they have shown they are BETTER.

Yes, that's all well and good in fantasy land, but what about the hard workers who can't find a job in the real world? They just have to suck it?

Stop being a socialist, and be a hard worker.

Since when both are mutually exclusive?

And FYI, I don't hate wealth but I do have a problem with those obscene, fat millionaire pigs who keep it all to themselves while half of the world is starving to death. I guess that must make me a "dangerous evil commie"...

Obviously, we won't see eye to eye on this matter so I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Dutch]

Obviously, we won't see eye to eye on this matter so I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Yep.

[nahuel]

Sometimes I feel that talking about "capitalism" is something that is already obsolete. Come on, capitalism by definition according to wikipedia. "Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.[1""

But we know that bankers and other groups that have money, those who handle the world reserves, those who accumulate the debts of all countries accumulate their money based on scams and usury.

The problem is not capitalism, the problem is these financial parasites that were born with capitalism and have been enriched since that time.

The real problems come from that shitty people, (for example the crises in each of the countries) and not by "CAPITALISM", to reduce all problems to "capitalism" is to think in a very childish way. Marx did it long ago (yes, financed by many friends usurers) only to provoke pure shit in the world.

Accusing capitalism in pursuit of socialism is to look elsewhere and not at the source of the problem!
The problem is the banks, speculators and all that shit that accompanies both socialism and capitalism.

[H1CC]

There is obvioiusly the same exact problem with Socialism/Communism as there is with highly-Capitalism-side Mixed Capitalism or even Pure Capitalism.
It's too easily exploited, and both governmental corruption and citizenal laziness is to blame.
Communism involves trading economic freedom for economic security, for fairness, but a lower standard of living.
Capitalism involves trading economic freedom for economic security, for a higher standard of living, but greater unfairness.


As I and DeathKnight both pointed out, you don't have enough reason to warrant complaining so much unless you're locked in a prison cell all day, not that you can complain very effectively from there.
And, again, as I and Baker both pointed out, it's really the same problems you're looking at just from opposite sides of overall economic philosophy, like when he said, "One school of thought isn't that either capitalism or socialism wins, but some sort of sick corporatism economic system."


I apprecaite the point he made about having "'gone willingly' and knowingly" into the 'trap' of Facebook.
I, for the longest time utterly refused to join '"social networking sites" and services' on the sole basis that they were in large part resonsible for the degradation of human communication, being far more about being 'socially connected' technologically, at the expense of "real, meaingful, conversation" and the overall quality of conversation with which people talk to each other.


Turns out I was right-- at least in that other people are starting to feel the same way I did before.
I remember being at the nearest coffee shop around here, situated in the middle of the walking distance from my apartment to the local university campus, and she told me that she had noticed how much harder it had become to find, and maintain, being friends with people. I pointed to someone who was playing something that looked like a MOBA on his laptop, by himself, at a the table behind her, saying like "why would you even do that here when you can do that at home"? And I didn't mean to be being judgemental, just making a point by it, for example. I told her however, that she seems to be managing better than I am. After all, she's just noticing the problem, me, I'm already having to deal with it.


But it was a 20-minute trip through a 30-minute conversation, and I usually take an hour to finish a minute in terms of conversation-- especially when it comes to "arguing on the internet".
I didn't make another friend that day, let alone did I "get her number". But I continue to feel like I'm getting close. How much longer do I have to way until I "get a job", and moreover, have "real friends, on a face-to-face level"? That I can't say. But I won't blame Facebook for it-- and certainly not the economic system that I'm dealing with.

[SpecialBomb]

I have fooled you all!!!

THIS WAS ALL A MASTER PLAN FOR MY GOVERNMENT ARGUMENTATIVE ESSAY!

YOU FOOLS RAN RIGHT INTO MY TRAP!

...

On a serious note though, I think that capitalism works in most cases, the only issue with it is that you can't prevent greed, and greed causes unfair advantage, as well as forcing more money than you need. With a lot of money and assets, you can control the world. It's only until greed and stupidity takes advantage of powerful men when things go bad. ISPs for example, they want to suck you dry, and are very unaware of the necessity of the medium they are providing; they just want money, and they don't care. And, again, like dutch said, someone can successfully create their own competitor, and although unlikely, they can still make a change to the system.

With socialism, it's a wide effect kind of thing. Everybody is affected by the same economy. Therefore, when it goes bad, everybody goes down. I also agree that it sometimes promotes laziness, but that depends on the person handling it. It can just be unfair in some cases, but that doesn't mean capitalism can't be either.

I can't give too many examples, because I am just a kid that does his homework and plays video games, so I have to take the little things I know and make assumptions.

If I'm wrong, I can take it. I'll figure it out someday.

Also, CAN WE ALL SHUT THE FUCK UP. I hate to see people get pissed off over politics when they should have better things to worry about.

[DeathMaster]

^^^
that

[Massao]

I have bit similiar problem but i use internet from neighbor, try to call your isp and tell them about this. good luck with your internet very hard to find perfect internet

[Mugwump]

CAN WE ALL SHUT THE FUCK UP.

I tried to put an end to the off-topic but Dutch wouldn't let me... Also, I would assume that in this particular part of the interwebz, we're all mature enough to be able to discuss opposing views without getting pissed. I ain't pissed. Are any of you guys pissed?

[Dutch]

@bfg

nope, not pissed at all. like I said, you're a cool guy. I respect you, especially because you're willing to take a stance on something and not fold like a cheap lawn chair.

But you're not trying to put an end to it at all. You're accusing me of 'forcing' you to stay engaged. No one's holding a gun to your head to respond to me, you could simply ignore me and this goes away. Obviously, the same could be said for me and this post I'm currently typing. But I just wanted to remind you that you started this debacle. You can't pop into a thread, throw out an inflammatory statement like "let's get rid of captialism" (especially when you know a few of us are gonna jump in and respond to that), watch the sparks fly, and then try to cut outta dodge and blame it on someone else. Not happening, bro.

But we agreed to disagree, and I do feel somewhat bad for helping you hijack this thread, so I'm out now. I've said my piece.