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  • "Gaming mice" - crap?

    I don't know why I recently felt the urge to buy a gaming mouse... but I did. I even bought two of them in the end. So here goes my little story, for your entertainment, and I'll also draw a conclusion when I'm finished.

    For the longest time, I was using this 10 euro optical laptop mouse, really small and cheap 800 dpi corded no-name USB rodent. Before that, I used a ball mouse which I really liked the shape of but it had the typical problems of course.

    So I was reading this astonishing mouse benchmark at ESReality, and browsing Quakeworld.nu and a host of other forums, and getting more and more itchy to try a new mouse. At the time I also wanted to try additional mouse buttons, for quicker access to several weapons.

    I'm a high sens player, I can turn 180 degrees without lifting my palm off the table, and so I thought "more DPI might be nice, too."

    So with the requirements of several additional buttons, pretty much 1600 dpi, corded, and reliable, and preferably optical, it was clear that it was between one of the Logitech mice and Razor. I soon got the impression that Logitech mice were more sturdy, especially the thumb buttons etc (Diamondback thumb buttons look really flimsy), plus normal stores carry them here, so I could test before buying. In the end, I got a MX518.

    Logitech MX518: Definitely sturdy, good workmanship, 10 buttons, ergonomically shaped, very fine-tunable via software - and a fat butt. Gosh, this thing is a brick - never would have guessed other people have SUCH big hands! Also, after using it for a while, I found out that it's designed for people who hold their mouse between thumb and pinky, putting index finger on left button, middle finger on wheel and ring finger on right button.

    Soon there were some problems. I couldn't get used to the shape, and I slowly realized that apparently I have _really_ small hands. I'm 1.83 m tall, so I would guess a normal mouse would be fine - but no, this really hi-tech ergonomical thing (looks like something from StarTrek!) is too fat for my hands. Also, I'm normally holding the mouse more in the fingertips while having the back of the palm on the table, and prefer not using the ring finger.

    What's more, I fooled around with the extra buttons but surprisingly they didn't make as much sense as I thought. And I would keep accidentally hitting one of the thumb buttons while browsing the web ^^ stupid thumb buttons.

    So I returned to switching weapons via the keyboard, apart from a quick grenade bind on the wheel. I'm 90% a shotgun user anyway and found out I can switch weapons pretty quickly.

    The dpi thing was also interesting. Turned out I was SO used to the 800 dpi setting that even after weeks, I would instinctively reach for the nifty little DPI switching buttons on the mouse, and set it down. I tried lowering my in-game sensitivity setting accordingly, but it felt so weird... it was no use, I definitely play best at 800 dpi. Having 1600 dpi did NOT magically improve my aim or make me play better. Instead, it messed up my movement, dodging, strafing and bunnying abilities, which is too much of a price to pay for theoretical marginal aim improvements - in my book at least.

    So in the end, I was using it as a high-end, ergonomically shaped three-button mouse at 800 dpi resolution :-) one with too fat a bottom for my tiny hand, surplus onboard DPI switching and thumb buttons that just got in the way. And the wheel on that thing is SO sticky, and small, that it's almost not useable as a third button.

    So I thought, "hmm, why not get something smaller, simpler, with just three buttons but still high-tech?" And then I saw pics of the Razer Krait. Which promises exactly that - when you ignore the marketing blurb about RTS games and APM and all the other shit, of which I was already sure at the time that it was just that, shit. =) A Razer with a smaller-than-usual body, two buttons and a useable wheel (according to tests.) And no flimsy thumb buttons.

    And yeah, it's not that expensive, so I ordered it.

    Now guess what happens when I get it, toss the several layers of plastic away that it comes in, ignore the stupid marketing crap on the cover, plug it in and start using it...

    Razer Krait: Really nice, smallish shape, nice buttons, good working wheel with well-defined click, works for right- and lefthanded people, plus the Diamondback's optical sensor.

    And... stops working after five seconds.

    Huh?

    Unplug the USB connector, replug, hey nice - that seems to have solved the problem. Five seconds later... mouse cursor freezes, buttons don't respond anymore, only the orange kiddie lanparty glow is still there. So it gets power, right?

    Unplug, replug - good, it works again. Check if it's recognized by the kernel - sure, Razer 1600 dpi optical mouse, handlers: /dev/input/mouse1, /dev/input/event2. Everything A-OK. Open the desktop menu - no problem, works like a charm.

    Five seconds later - total freeze again. Nice orange glow, though.

    Plug in MX518 - no problems, like before.

    Ehhh... OK, I go to Razer's website. They must have a support forum, right. Wrong. Those guys don't HAVE a forum. They have lots of "upgrade your firmware" ideas in their support section, though. Well here's the catch:

    This thing HAS no firmware. It's a friggin' three-button-mouse! What do mice need firmware for anyway? I look at the more interesting support sections for the Copperhead etc, and apparently people ARE having unplug-replug-cursor-freeze problems with those. Supposedly that's "just a firmware issue." Sigh...

    This is the point where questions start popping up in my head.

    #1 How can a company that sells "professional gaming mice" even HAVE firmware issues with their products? They should be plug-and-play right?

    #2 How can a company that creates a big marketing hype about the "Razer mob" not have a community forum on their site?! Heh, credibility?!

    #3 Mice with firmware. Eh... it's the same crap everywhere really. A mouse is HARDWARE. It has a sensor that sends data to the computer plus some switches. Excuse me, PROFILES? FIRMWARE UPDATES? Please. Why can't they just build a reliable, useable mouse? It's not a friggin' cell phone!

    #4 From a supposedly professional maker, NO linux support whatsoever. Not even specs. Nothing. (And no forum.)

    #5 Having gotten curious, I look around the internet. Gosh, guess how many people have those weird problems with Razer mice! Unplug, replug being very high on the list, especially with Diamondbacks. Now what is the official reaction from Razer? NOTHING. For years! And... the Diamondback doesn't have firmware, either! So it must be something else, right? "Oh, it must be a driver issue!" BULLSHIT! A mouse doesn't even NEED a dedicated driver, it's just an assembly of switches and a sensor!

    EVERY mouse I ever had has been working with THE STANDARD LINUX MOUSE DRIVERS! I never TOUCHED the crappy proprietary Windows drivers. Surely Razer mice are something special, right... apart from the fact that the Krait DOES work with the standard linux mouse driver (of course it does) - for five seconds at a time.

    ^^

    Now what do we have here. Two "professional gaming mice".

    One is rock-solid, has no colored lighting, but lots of superfluous switches and idiotic features (let's be honest here, who needs onboard DPI switching?), and is made for right-handers with (I'm pretty sure) medium to big hands and a special grip. Let's not start on the look of the MX518. But at least it's generally useable.

    Is it worth the over 40 euros? Ehhh... not really. Does it make me play better than my 10 euro no-name featureless piece of crap? Not really!

    The other is one of the few mice that I can actually, ergonomically, use. I like its minimalist "no-frills" approach. Three buttons and an asshole, this should be plug-and-play right? Umm no, not exactly. Instead it has a really, really weird technical problem that is the most unexpected behaviour I've ever seen in a piece of (not) hardware (that just has 2 buttons and a wheel!)

    The company's website is crap, they seem to be more interested in colorful marketing than quality support or even credibility. And the more you look around, the more people you see with similar weird technical problems that just don't get addressed by the company.

    What's the conclusion?

    "Gaming mice" are crap. :-( Quake is probably one of the fastest, hardest shooter games ever. You'd think "gaming grade" equipment would make a difference, if not here, where else?

    But at this point, I long for a mouse with the Krait's small body and simplicity (much like my old, old ball mouse) and the Logitech's solidness. I should probably just buy a Microsoft office mouse :-/ or the 10 euro Logitech. The little laptop mouse, while reliable, is showing its age and it's really just a tad small.

    What kind of people do actually USE this overhyped crap?

    counterstrike players?
    Scout's Journey
    Rune of Earth Magic

  • #2
    My Logitec G5 200dpi 10 button Laser mouse with adjustable weights works 10x better then any $10 mouse once its configured and optimized!

    Not all gaming mice are bad, I spent $30 on a MS mouse for gaming when my last G5 died in a horrible accident and the MS mouse was complete crap! so I bought another $69 G5.

    I also use my mouse's onboard DPI switching when I switch games, since almost every FPS game has a different feel with the mouse.
    QuakeOne.com
    Quake One Resurrection

    QuakeOne.com/qrack
    Great Quake engine

    Qrack 1.60.1 Ubuntu Guide
    Get Qrack 1.60.1 running in Ubuntu!

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    • #3
      I agree with you and nicely written..

      I did this about 3-4 years ago. I bought the big as$ black razor (it was the only model they had available at the time). I have very big hands being 6'4 and this thing was still pushing it for me, size wise. Not to mention the DPI was just too much for what im use to and it threw me off of everything. Wasted about a week getting use to it and getting un use to it and back on to my old mouse.


      Now i use a Microsoft 4 button scroll optical mouse, corded, and it is slightly slanted/sloped to the right. Its really simple and fits in hand nicely.

      It can be seen here:

      http://www.com-tra.de/img/p/07099_o.jpg

      The reason i love it so much is because i came from the old 2 button microsoft ball mouse that was slightly curved. So this one is just a step up from that.



      I dont think you need a fancy mouse for quake 1.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by golden_boy View Post
        Unplug the USB connector, replug, hey nice - that seems to have solved the problem. Five seconds later... mouse cursor freezes, buttons don't respond anymore, only the orange kiddie lanparty glow is still there. So it gets power, right?

        Unplug, replug - good, it works again. Check if it's recognized by the kernel - sure, Razer 1600 dpi optical mouse, handlers: /dev/input/mouse1, /dev/input/event2. Everything A-OK. Open the desktop menu - no problem, works like a charm.

        Five seconds later - total freeze again. Nice orange glow, though.
        I will never use a USB mouse (@ home) until the day they stop making desktops with PS/2 ports.

        Ever since USB came out, people have had problems periodically with mouse and keyboard issues.

        I knew a girl who had a purchased a new computer and a week later after installing something, the USB mouse and USB keyboard stopped working. You can't exactly do much if the keyboard and mouse don't work.

        I have a Logitech 330 MX or something like that, works great. I use a USB to PS/2 adapter for it, of course.
        Quakeone.com - Being exactly one-half good and one-half evil has advantages. When a portal opens to the antimatter universe, my opposite is just me with a goatee.

        So while you guys all have to fight your anti-matter counterparts, me and my evil twin will be drinking a beer laughing at you guys ...

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        • #5
          My USB mouse/keyboard never gave me any problems. You just need to make sure you have USB keyboard enabled in the BIOS so that when you try installing windows or booting to safe mode the computer knows you want USB and not PS/2.

          @ Baker: what did she install, the collector's pack of viruses? :p

          Higher DPI means the mouse updates more often. A low DPI mouse might jump 10 pixels before it actually moves, where a high DPI mouse will be smoother.

          //my generic low-dp mouse can be a pain in BF2/2142 when trying to use an accurate weapon like the L85A1 or a sniper's rifle. Can't usually get a great shot on someone due to the "jumpiness".
          e|------------------------0---------------
          B|---------------0^1----------------1----
          G|---------------2------2------0^2-------
          D|---------------2-------2--2-------------
          A|---------------0------------------------
          E|----------------------------------------

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          • #6
            My optical PS\2 mouse works without Problems at 112Hz
            But I can't set the rate on Vista.
            M$ wants everyone to buy Usb-mice

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            • #7
              Originally posted by the_f0qer View Post
              @ Baker: what did she install, the collector's pack of viruses? :p
              I think she installed a printer or drivers for a digital camera.
              Quakeone.com - Being exactly one-half good and one-half evil has advantages. When a portal opens to the antimatter universe, my opposite is just me with a goatee.

              So while you guys all have to fight your anti-matter counterparts, me and my evil twin will be drinking a beer laughing at you guys ...

              Comment


              • #8
                @ Baker:

                I discovered the Krait doesn't work AT ALL on the PS/2 port (using an adapter that came, umm, with the Logitech.)

                Here's the official answer from Razer's website addressing this problem:

                "The Krait doesn't work on PS/2 ports. We recommend you don't do that."

                Wow. Again, this thing has three buttons and an orange glow (well not anymore, I desoldered the big-ass LEDs to reduce the current draw - no dice.)

                What's so special about it??? What needs to be so special about it?

                @ DPI ppl:

                I can see how 1600 dpi can be useful when you're playing at a high screen resolution. But I'm not, I only have an 800X600 screen, so this may explain why high DPI isn't helpful here. I know many ppl use something like 640X480 for Quake, FPS reasons probably (I know that's the reason for me) but there might be other reasons.

                640X480 isn't really a lot of pixels. Anyway, OK, apparently somebody does use that stuff. The DPI switching Logitech says is good for sniper rifles etc. which we don't have in Quake though (luckily.) Personally whenever I accidentally touch one of the DPI buttons (often), I shake my head a bit. But just a bit.

                The Logitech is a good mouse, let that be noted, which has given me zero technical problems (apart from the ridiculous wheel). It's just that I learned the design isn't right for me. I might keep it or give it to somebody who can cope with it.
                Scout's Journey
                Rune of Earth Magic

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                • #9
                  Now i use a Microsoft 4 button scroll optical mouse, corded, and it is slightly slanted/sloped to the right. Its really simple and fits in hand nicely.

                  It can be seen here:

                  http://www.com-tra.de/img/p/07099_o.jpg

                  The reason i love it so much is because i came from the old 2 button microsoft ball mouse that was slightly curved. So this one is just a step up from that.
                  That looks nice. The front looks much like the Krait, but the back again seems too fat for me. Plus it seems pretty tall, and the wheel looks suspiciously like my Logitech's. The Razer has a rather big, flat/broad wheel with very defined click, which I like (or would like if it worked reliably.)

                  http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.a...tno=338&pgno=5

                  Do you ever have problems with accidentally hitting the side buttons?

                  Does anyone know if there are still any mice with a real third button in place of the wheel?
                  Scout's Journey
                  Rune of Earth Magic

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Disco Rockstar View Post
                    Now i use a Microsoft 4 button scroll optical mouse, corded, and it is slightly slanted/sloped to the right. Its really simple and fits in hand nicely.

                    It can be seen here:

                    http://www.com-tra.de/img/p/07099_o.jpg

                    The reason i love it so much is because i came from the old 2 button microsoft ball mouse that was slightly curved. So this one is just a step up from that.
                    That's the mouse I used to use. I've gone through 3 of them... I loved the mouse with the exception that it seemed that the springs in the mouse button kept breaking. The last one I owned only lasted about 6 months before the spring went and when you would click it would randonly recognize double clicks when the button was only pressed once. I'd keep buying them but I don't want to have to buy a new mouse every 6 months... aside from the button problem, that mouse was perfect and worked like a charm.

                    As far as USB stuff goes, I've never had one single problem with USB mice and keyboards. I will continue to use USB over PS/2...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      http://www.buildyourown.org.uk/forum...TOPIC_ID=12719

                      This one said it best:

                      for the price they cost it's no joke being so buggy
                      More fun with Razers...

                      http://hardware.gotfrag.com/portal/f...thread/305245/

                      it doesn't respond and my cursor is frozen. If I unplug it and plug it back in it works for a bit and then freezes again.
                      *shakes head*

                      that mice is GREAT man. this is the first time i m hearing of this mice i av typed it in googe. man it RoCkZZZZZ..
                      :-D

                      Somewhere else on the Internet someone said that an active USB hub might do it, so I'll take my computer and the mouse to my favourite store tomorrow and test some active USB hubs.

                      They will probably think I'm crazy. =) but luckily they're normally cool with such things. Would be cheaper than another mouse.
                      Last edited by golden_boy; 10-03-2007, 01:51 PM.
                      Scout's Journey
                      Rune of Earth Magic

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                      • #12
                        I have had the Logitech MX518 "Gaming Grade" optical mouse for almost 2 years now, and I love it. It's rock solid, and fits my giant meat hooks (or at least my right one, the hand I play with) perfectly. I will say the Dpi switch buttons are worthless, as I only use the 800 dpi setting. Also, I don't use the extra buttons when I play Quake, but they do come in handy for other shooters with more complicated controls, but they're aren't too many games I use them for since I switched from windows to Ubuntu. By the way, the linux drivers built into the kernel work perfectly and properly detect all the buttons, even the dpi switch.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by golden_boy View Post

                          Hmm, I've never ever had a problem with my Razer until recently the right button seems to be worn out or getting there. I've just purchased the Krait seeing they don't produce the Viper anymore.

                          Owell, I like em.

                          I will find you... it's only a matter of time.

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                          • #14
                            It seems to depend on the motherboard/USB hub. Some are fine, others aren't, but apparently there's no way to tell except actually trying the mouse.

                            I recompiled kernel with USB verbose debug support, and now I do get a report when the mouse stops working. It's not very clear though, probably only kernel developers understand it. Fact is, something happens in the USB hub, the signal path (not the power) is cut and a message is sent to syslog. Kernel says the USB hub has "ganged overcurrent protection", but I can't believe a mouse would draw more than 500mA during normal use... I'll try my luck with Google.

                            Blew a cheap USB hub today when connecting a power supply :-) It was pretty funny. The explosion was worth the 7 euros I'll say that. (Look Hobbes, it smokes!) I tried replacing the blown cap, but apparently one of the chips died. Cheap chinese hardware can't take a 12V power supply it seems. It also seems the Chinese don't know what a fuse is.

                            I'll have to do more testing in the shop, not enough time today.

                            But you know, this kind of stuff shouldn't be necessary really.
                            Scout's Journey
                            Rune of Earth Magic

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by golden_boy View Post
                              something happens in the USB hub, the signal path (not the power) is cut
                              When there's a power outage or I unplug the unit then turn it on, anything on the USB doesnt' work. I go behind and plug it in another USB slot then it works fine. Power goes out again, I put it back from where it was last time.

                              That's about the only problem I've had with USB.

                              I will find you... it's only a matter of time.

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