Serious question... what side are you on, and give your reasons. No personal insults.

[Fuzznut]

^^^ The full quote would have been better.

Voting blocks vote for issues that directly matter to them. This is why the upcoming massive Social Security imbalance has not been fixed.

Older voters are not interested in the problems in school systems, problems with the job market or problems financing a college education.

Older voters are concerned with getting their Social Security check, their Medicare and their prescription drug benefits.

There is going to be a perpetual budget crisis within 10 years on the scale that makes the cost of Iraq war look like pennies. There will be a budget shortfall annually of about $1 trillion that increases about 7% per year.

What would you have them do?

All the things with the prices, and the prescriptions and the deficit comes from places like the Bush Administration, and most of all our complacency. We allow it.

Someone's getting rich off that deficit, and it ain't the elderly on medicair etc etc.

[Baker]

What would you have them do?

All the things with the prices, and the prescriptions and the deficit comes from places like the Bush Administration, and most of all our complacency. We allow it.

Someone's getting rich off that deficit, and it ain't the elderly on medicair etc etc.

The someone who will be getting rich off the deficit will be countries like the United Arab Emirates (Dubai) and Asian countries that are buying our debt.

I'm not saying any particular member of the older voting block caused the problem, but the mindset is all wrong.

The cosmic irony is that our government is almost entirely controlled by 50-60 year olds, the "baby boomers" who will also be retiring in the next 10 years and they represent a disproportionally huge voting block.

So they have

1) The government control
2) They are ones that be in that retiring pool
3) They have the votes
4) Were the ones that gave themselves the benefits

What do we get?

1) Failing schools and super-expensive college
2) A make-believe economy financed on mortgage debt (collapsing!)
3) Will "inherit" a massive deficit
4) Are somehow going to be expected to pay for this blackhole of a financial situation?

It's almost like a cosmic irony.

The older generations vote themselves tons of benefits and let the education and employment systems of the country fail, and that's our future.

WTF??!?!?!

[Fuzznut]

Alright Baker. I misunderstood your original post I guess. I agree with you for the large part.

[Mindf!3ldzX]

change will come from newer generations,and it looks like a current bunch of old douche bags ;O every last one of them.

[omix2]

change will come from newer generations,and it looks like a current bunch of old douche bags ;O every last one of them.

fuck them. they've ruined our lives and our future lives as well.

[spooker]

i think a lot of what's being posted here is garbage, but i'm glad you all have your safety valve to let off your rants here. i'll just point out that from the perspective of classical political theory, what we have is an elective aristocracy, that's what the ancients would call it. to them, democracy was a mob congregating together to discuss all the issues. it only worked on the scale of city-states, not countries the size of ours.

[Baker]

i think a lot of what's being posted here is garbage

Yeah maybe (including mine), but there is a lot of frustration. Ironically I was thinking about this today.

I ended up spending some time walking around in downtown Columbus (OH) and most of the buildings are vacant.

In fact, most of the commercial property is vacant everywhere in Columbus and the surrounding areas.

And what's scary is that in Ohio, Columbus is the capital so it gets a disproportional amount of "pork" and whatever else you want to call the businesses that depend on government.

So Columbus is rather shielded from economic problems in Ohio. And if you go outside Columbus, to "non-shielded" areas it is FAR worse.

And something that bugs the heck out of me, is that the nursing and medical industry is thriving. It's due to the number of retirement/nursing homes in outlying counties.

8-9 years ago, I can remember every office complex in the city and everywhere within a 50 mile radius being occupied.

This is just descriptive observation. I don't know any answers and probably don't even know any questions either.

I have a feeling some of this is the side-effect of the ultimate effects of high technology. I think the internet and new age communication and information systems may have wiped out much of the need for middlemen and so forth.

Look at banks, where there used to be hundreds and hundreds of them, there are now WAY fewer banks due to the "economics of scale" benefit where less banks can handle more customers. Maybe the same way a company like Walmart can more efficiently distribute goods, or how Netflix has levelled video rental stores.

And it's true my painting with a broad brush criticism of the effects of "old people" voting was a little gay. Maybe part of that is that I personally would be upset if Obama doesn't win either the Democratic primary or the general election.

[Fuzznut]

And something that bugs the heck out of me, is that the nursing and medical industry is thriving. It's due to the number of retirement/nursing homes in outlying counties.

OK are you upset in general that the elderly are getting health care? Or is it just the rich elderly?

[Baker]

OK are you upset in general that the elderly are getting health care? Or is it just the rich elderly?

Circular internal economy. It's dangerous.

A country can't buy all their products from China via Walmart but use all internal resources on health care for seniors.

Eventually, that catches up.

The dollar will continue to deflate and we will be living in a world of $40.00 per gallon gasoline.

My upsetness is that it seems like we a moth attracted to the bug zapper and won't be talked out of flying into the bug zapper.

Yes, we know the bug zapper is there. Do we do something about it, no?

Emotions, political correctness when the reality sets in that a country simply cannot spend $1.5 trillion per year on seniors while having no exports. It will cause massive inflation and possibly Great Depression consequences.

[spooker]

old people only become a really intractable problem when the population starts shrinking or there is an imbalance of old/young people. the population of the US is growing as it always has, and old people shouldn't be too much of a problem as long as immigrants are willing to come here and feed their labor into the system as fresh input for social security.
i know ohio is still very much a manufacturing-based economy; when i drive around there i cant believe the number of shipping trucks i see, it's scary. this is probably why you're focused on the manufacturing part, baker. economy in MA hasn't stumbled at all--in fact, the value of my house has actually stayed level all through the subprime crap, which is problematic cuz no young people can afford to live around here. but it wasn't this good in the 70s and 80s--lots of mill and factory towns around here went bust, but they've now reemerged as centers for biotech, research, engineering, etc. Transition to a knowledge-based economy took about 20-30 years. timeframe might be different for ohio, but the process might be similar

[Baker]

old people only become a really intractable problem when the population starts shrinking or there is an imbalance of old/young people.

That is what is happening in a lot of the interior states. It's bad in Ohio.

Coastal states aren't affected by it. Particularly interior states in the North.

shouldn't be too much of a problem as long as immigrants

Ironically, using Ohio as an example, you see very few immigrants. Even in Columbus. The economy here is so bad, no one moves here. Not even immigrants.

Another Columbus-based company was bought out today, LOL. Wendy's got by Arby's.

i know ohio is still very much a manufacturing-based economy

The outlying regions were, that's for sure and those are virtually wiped out. Columbus used to have a great number of "knowledge-based" and IT based companies. And things like telcos, banks and research and development companies.

old people only become a really intractable problem when the population starts shrinking or there is an imbalance of old/young people.

Like I said above, this is happening here ... here is how it happens ...

1. Jobs dry up. Either through mergers or companies relocating or closing.
2. If you graduate from college, all the companies that want you are from out-of-state.
3. Young people leave, en masse.
4. Old people remain

Well, here is what happens after that ...

1. School levies are always voted down because not enough parents exist to outnumber retirees who never vote for new taxes.
2. Places with bad schools generally are going to attract anyone to move there and certainly companies don't relocate to there.
3. Because old people have government backed health care, the health care industry booms and raises the cost of health care. Doctors are in fields where there is a lot of money and government paid health expenses are a sure thing.

And once you have this problem, it appears to be permanent. There does not appear to be a solution. Permanent and irreversible demographics change and a permanent stagnant economy. Old people aren't socially active, they don't care about the state of the roads, schools, economy because they are beyond all of that -- at least I mean those factors will never be what they vote on.

So you end up with an apathetic and complacent government too.

At least that's my theory. Right or wrong, it's my guess explanation of what I think I see happening.

[Zop]

Although this isn't the main topic of the thread...

MSG isn't entirely bad by itself (tomatoes have glutamate in them), but it's an indication to me that the food is poor quality, or thinned out and lacking in nutrition.

[asc]

I don't even know where to begin with this thread

As someone who isn't American, I can't say I give a flying fuck about American pride, or reputation However, being a product (and supporter) of the "west," I must say fuck the east.

"Terrorists" (as defined as someone committed to die, or kill, or inflict physical or emotional harm in the name of a higher power such as a god, or a leader, or a politician) are illogical, stupid as fuck, and, frankly, laughable.

Americans are fat and lazy. So what?

Australians are almost as fat, statistically. They're obviously lazy. They pollute like fucking crazy, yet nobody sits here commenting on them. Why? Because Australia is irrelevant. They have no power, no influence, no nothing. The most significant thing Australia has done in the last 25 years is Silverchair. 'Nuff said.

England has more cocaine usage and alcoholism and high school drop outs than most (if not all) of europe. Why not discuss that? Because England is naught but a speck compared to the great entity it once was in the past. Outside of London you'll find England to be very irrelevant and very self-absorbed.

France was once an intellectual haven. Everything intellectual, literary, musical or artistic had to pass through Paris to make way to the rest of the world. Don't make it in Paris? Then you aren't shit. But guess what? Paris now has, what, 14% unemployment? Rioting in the streets and more HIV than anywhere else in western europe. Maybe even eastern europe, as well. In Paris today you'll find a lot of ex-pats trying to live like Hemingway, and you'll find a billion people selling you mini eiffel towers and running tourist shops, selling an idea of the past to those living in the present

Give France, England or Australia the power and influence that America has, and your criticisms will go directly to them, just with switched details. The problems you guys described aren't AMERICAN problems. They are details. They are details of problems that aren't uniquely American, rather they are HUMAN problems. Corruption and liars and unfulfilled potential exist in EVERY country, in ALL history.

America has problems. But so does everyone else. You can examine the details of Americas problems, but you're not doing any good. Because if put in America's role, the rest of the entire world would likely be doing the same. IN fact, if you examine history, I bet you could find countless amounts of fatal flaws in EVERY major dynasty or world power to ever have existed. This is why all power is fleeting and all world powers die out, only to give way to another, which will in turn fuck up and pass away

Shit on America all you want, but please realize that these aren't American problems, they are problems that are within us all. Just because America is in the spotlight makes it easier for us to see that which hides in the shadows in any other country

[spooker]

that was really well written. not saying i agree or disagree---but cogently argued and intelligently presented
as aristotle taught me, we should seek the middle ground in everything. the justification for this (which I came up with) is that there are so many good aspects and so many bad aspects of every position, be it in politics, philosophy, lifestyle, business, etc. by being in the middle, we can experience some part of all the major problems in life, but not let any one of those problems get overwhelmingly strong. we can also experience some part of all the really good things in life; but again, none of them will be so strong as to send us into ecstasy. so, this is all i want for myself: a moderate life. i dont quite know where i can find this kind of life--but i suspect america isn't the best place to look; at least not the northeast

[urdead]

I thought you said this was going to be "factual"? There are no facts here at all, just your own opinion, and a very misguided one at that. I will attribute that to your lack of worldly experiences/age. With age, comes wisdom.

[/thread]